Bruce: As I said before, by choosing your verses carefully, you paint a picture that sounds good, even scriptural, but the Holy Spirit keeps whispering in my ear that what you are telling me is wrong, so let me quibble with you a bit.
1. I went back and looked up every reference to reprobate and reprobates, and to me, they sound an awful lot like what you are calling carnal Christians. I am not arguing that there are no carnal Christians. Only that they must be babes in Christ who are ignorant of what our Lord expects of His followers 2. I am not adding to God's word. I am simply trying to understand it. He knows my heart and He knows I am searching, not modifying. 3.In Matthew 6:24, Jesus does not say "This part is only for twelve men". He says it is for ANY man that wants to follow Him. This message was for every person who reads the words, those you call the multitudes. 4. If Jesus Christ is your Savior, He is your Lord, your God. He is not a magic lamp that you put on a shelf and ignore until needed. If you do not take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Him, there is a very real question as to whether or not you even have faith 5. Jesus has said,"I will never leave or forsake you". You can take that to the bank. But Jesus has never said that you cannot forsake Him. He is able to keep us, but He will not force us to stay. 6. The very fact that "they did not RETAIN God" would indicate to me that reprobates were once people who professed to believe. Like John says, "They went out from us because they were not of us". They talked the talk., but they did not endure. What I guess I am saying is the easy salvation you are teaching is something I just cannot swallow. It sticks about half way down, and it tastes more like the wide road than the narrow path. I think I will continue to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. Terry > Dear Terry, > > In response to my last post, you wrote:"Sounds good and sounds scriptural, > but I do not believe it. Jesus said, deny self, follow me. Carnal people are > not doing that. Jesus said , Why do you call Me Lord when you do not do as I > tell you to do? He is not the Lord of people whose life reflects a long time > pattern of disobedience. There is some point known only to God when He turns > them over to a reprobate mind and writes them off. I cannot prove that with > one verse or ten verses, but the entire word of God adds up to that." > > Brother, I am thoroughly convinced that: > -The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of > earth, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6 > - Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust > in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found > a liar. Proverbs 30:5,6 > - Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is > of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. > Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, > but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with > spiritual. I Corinthians 2:12,13 > > So let us consider what you have said in light of what the very words of > scripture SAY: > Yes, in Matthew 16:24 Jesus said unto his disciples, "If any man will come > after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." > > Brother, notice a number of things about this text: > -TO WHOM it was spoken: It was spoken to his disciples, NOT to the > multitudes! > > -WHAT was spoken: "If any man will come after me..." NOT if any man will be > saved! The prerequisites for salvation are faith and repentance, NOT > denying one's self, taking up one's cross, and following Christ. Those were > the requirements for those who would come after Christ. > > -WHEN these words were spoken: They were spoken PRIOR TO CALVARY AND THE > CRUCIFIXION. Anyone who takes up their cross, has not yet been crucified! > But once the Lord Jesus was crucified at Calvary (and we were crucified > there with Him Gal.2:20) no one is ever again told to take up their cross! > The word translated "deny" is found 13 times in scripture from Matthew 16:24 > to John 13:38 but is never mentioned again AFTER the crucifixion of Christ! > > A new covenant believer is never instructed to deny himself. But he IS given > many other instructions relative to himself: > Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that > is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; > but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure > of faith. > Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he > that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. > 1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth > to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. > 1 Corinthians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of > that bread, and drink of that cup. > 1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and > drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. > Galatians 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is > nothing, he deceiveth himself. > Galatians 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have > rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. > 2 Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of > this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. > 2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a > vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared > unto every good work. > James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, > To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself > unspotted from the world. > 1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, > even as he walked. > 1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even > as he is pure. > > What is most interesting to observe is that a believer who is living in a > carnal (fleshly ) state is failing to be obedient to ANY of these > instructions relative to HIMSELF! So I totally agree with you that those > who are living in a carnal state are NOT BEING OBEDIENT TO CHRIST. > > I also agree fully with you when you say, "He is not the Lord of people > whose life reflects a long time pattern of disobedience." But that does not > mean that He is not the Saviour, the High priest, the Provider, or the > Friend who will never leave nor forsake them! > > But the next statement of yours, is one with which I cannot agree: "There > is some point known only to God when He turns them (believers living in a > carnal state) over to a reprobate mind and writes them off." > > Not only is there not a verse of scripture that teaches that God ever deals > with any of His children in this way, there are scores of verses of > scripture that teach the exact opposite! > > Rather, those whom God gives over to a reprobate mind are ALWAYS > unbelievers! In Paul's epistles, he is writing to saints or believers. So > the pronouns he uses designate those to whom he is referring. "Ye", "You" > etc refers to believers. "We" refers to believers including himself. These > are the pronouns that are used in Romans 1:1-16. But "they " and "them" > usually refers to those who are not saved. These pronouns are used from > verse 19-32. So it is very evident that those who are referred to in Romans > 1:28 are NOT believers in a carnal state, but rather those who have never > been saved..."And even as they did not like to retain God in their > knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which > are not convenient;" > > I trust that our consideration of these things may be helpful, > Your brother in Christ, > Bruce > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
