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Beep, beep, coming through,
What would you guys say to the fool (gently
now, I'm talking about myself) who says that it is not our theology (our
biblical, doctrinal, and systematic beliefs) which save us; it is
Jesus Christ our Lord who saves us; and that our theology is the means through
which we participate in the salvation of our Lord? Good theology
translates into a better / truer / more in-depth knowledge of and relationship
with Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit to his Father, and bad
theology diminishes and limits our ability to know and relate to him / them. How
problematic would that be?
Bill Taylor
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 8:09
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Tough being a
Christian
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
DAVEH: OK Perry......So you are unified with
them in this respect......that also makes you unified with LDS theology in
this respect. It is the fringe elements where we part company.....
If we had the same Jesus, I would agree. Also, I am
talking biblical fringe, not extra-biblical fringe.
DAVEH: Most everything I've discussed in TT has been in
context of the Bible.
The debates among Christians here on TT are pretty
much in-house debates resolving issues that are interesting to understand,
but do not determine our salvation.
DAVEH: This may surprise
you, Perry.......But I'm not really as concerned about the theology TTers
argue, but rather the way they argue. Yes, I do find the divergent
doctrinal controversies to be interesting. But.......It is the acrid
comments that I find distressing. And I'm not to worried about those
disparaging comments directed at me. I expect that, considering how
I know most TTers think about my beliefs. What concerns me is how
they show their feelings toward their own fellow Christians. I
assume you read Ellsman's recent comments? Wow......what tree
bears fruit like that!
Yes, I read Elsman's comments.
DAVEH: Did you (or any other TTers) rejoice in
them? After reading his post, I had to wonder for what purpose did he
make them. Did it bring any edification? Even if the charges
are/were true.......so what? Even rogues like myself are welcome in
TT.
I see peculiar activities and
comments by street preachers on TT, and it makes me wonder what makes them
tick. To me, they are seemingly preaching the hell-fire and
brimstone religion of fear, rather than brotherly love. If I
were to bet the farm on which person would be more likely to inherit the
kingdom of God, Mother Theresa ministering to the poor......or......a
street preacher waving underwear to draw attention to Jesus........
If we look at Jesus cleansing the Temple, I didn't see much
brotherly love being quietly expressed there. DAVEH: I'll be
quite happy to leave Jesus to do his own house cleaning, as I think he prefers
me to be a bit more forgiving than some TTers would chose. IMHO, 7 times
70 is not a finite number, but rather an attitude to be adopted that extends
well beyond 490 times.
Also, He called the
Pharisees vipers and sons of the Devil. So, there must be a time when harsh
rebuking is merited. DAVEH: I'll be happy to let Jesus be
the our Master Judge and Rebuker. For me, I've got enough beams in my
eye to keep me busy removing while he does the heavy work.
However, I think that
there are some preachers who may go overboard in their attempt to draw
people from their stupor and into a legitimate discussion. Have you ever
stopped to think that although their measures may seem desparate, their
intentions are good, i.e., they want to tell people of the real Christ.
DAVEH: Can good intentions ever compensate for stupid
behavior? How can they not see that dragging our Lord's name through the
mud is detrimental to the message of the gospel? Who benefits from
waving underwear, Perry? Do folks really convert because of such
actions? Or.....does it cause them to reel in horror? That
their initial target audience may now welcome such approaches, I'm not really
concerned. IMHO, the street preachers are doing more damage to their
cause than to our cause by such behavior, so I would normally not be concerned
about such acts of obnoxiity (how's that for a new word!) What
troubles me is the image they are projecting of Jesus to the world who knows
him not. Do you think their weird actions are going to encourage non
Christians to hear the gospel message?
The LDS do not experience (as far as I know)
such debates within the organization because they have a council that
decides these issues and presents them as LDS doctrine. This is very
similar, if not the same, as the RCC structure...issues of doctrine are
decided by the church, then the people are told how to believe.
DAVEH: I don't think you've got that exactly
right, but you are close enough that it works for the purpose of this
discussion. From my perspective, the Lord reveals his will to his
servants, the prophets, and they pass his word down from
there. I don't see how that is much different from how the
Lord communicated to many of his followers in Bible times.
Yes, with His chosen prophets, not appointed
committes. DAVEH: As in the quorum of the apostles, who were
chosen and ordained by him?
DAVEH: As you carefully pointed out above
when you described the unity you have with other TTers, our focus is on
Christ, who died for our sins. Isn't the rest just /fringe aspects/?
WRT your comment that "most TTers think they are
serving another Jesus than I do", we see it as "the LDS are serving another
God and Jesus than Christians do"
As I said, a differnt Christ
and exgtra-biblical fringe.
DAVEH: Another thread is
being discussed.....
There are a myriad of important things not told
us by God
........that addresses this very matter. IMHO, that
extra-biblical fringe is extremely important and needs to be recognized
as such. If God has spoken to us outside the Bible, I don't think it is
wise to assume only that which is found in the Bible is important.
. I have demonstrated in a previous post about
how the LDS God and Jesus differ drastically fom the biblical God and
Jesus, so there is no chance they are the same. To say they are the same
is to close your eyes to the differences and PRETEND that the LDS God
and Jesus are the same as the Biblical God and Jesus.
DAVEH: I have previously stated that we believe
Jesus was born, died, atoned for our sins and was resurrected. Do
you believe one has to believe more than that, Perry?
One has to have the right jesus, not a jesus that
is the same in name only.
DAVEH: Go ahead and tell me
what is needed to believe about Jesus other than what I have stated above,
Perry. From what I've heard on TT, all other is just the fringe that
doesn't matter. What beliefs about Jesus do you think absolutely
matters?
It has been demonstrated that if there is
a link between the American natives and the Hebrews, it is very weak
(i.e., not strong enough to verify the cultures described in the BoM),
there is no archeological evidence of ancient cities or cultures of the
magnitude of those described in the BoM, the BoM can be shown to have
come from a manuscript of a novel that predates it by several years, and
Kevin has been diligent in presenting quote after quote after quote that
demonstrates the contradictory and deceitful nature of the LDS, so as
far as I am concerned Mormonism is a dead issue. Nothing more to debate
on it.
DAVEH: I guess you're playing your own
game with this one, Perry. I have not been arguing the above with
anybody on TT. Furthermore, I've avoided touting the BoM in
TT. That really isn't my purpose for being here. I think there
are some TTers who are intent in disparagingly presenting such material in
an effort to (as Blaine says) set up straw men to knock them down.
If you enjoy such, Perry....so be it. But, I think you are making a
big mistake if you assume that hearing a one sided discussion is
sufficient for drawing conclusions.
I hardly think
the discussion is one sided...Blaine has often made an excellent effort to
whitewash the information that has been posted here. In my estimation, the
material he presents does not often cover the discrepancies inthe LDS
church.
DAVEH: I don't follow Blaine's posts very
closely. But what I have seen, he has only had time to
briefly touch on LDS theology. Usually the responses to his posts are
not ones that are really meant to discuss LDS theology, but rather intended to
put a stop to a meaningful discussion.
BTW......I'm
leaving tomorrow for a couple weeks. Headed your direction, but won't be
close enough to stop by and visit.
Perry
--
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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