At the consummation of the age do we go to heaven or, does heaven come to us? Did Jesus assume the pre or post fallen nature of Adam at the Incarnation? Is human nature comprised of one, two or three "parts" (body, soul, spirit)? The rapture? Does what/how we believe influence how we live? Yes. This is how we determine who someone actually is.Have you ever met someone(s) who's "understanding" appears wrong on some thing(s) but, whose life (lives) are so utterly genuine as to be humbling when in their presence? "Talking of Truth" is beneficial but...Blessings, Lance From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: April 11, 2004 05:21 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
> David said: "Seems like too many think it too rude to tell David Miller that > he is wrong about THIS and why he is wrong." Please tell us with as much > clarity and precision as is possible the THIS you're believing. With > apologies in advance to those who find this objectionable, don't quote > scripture. Say in your words what you believe scripture teaches on THIS. If > you've done this before I missed it. The BT/DM discussion is valuable. I > appreciate it. Extend the context from word & tense to God Himself. This, I > believe, is where all discussions end. The mind/heart of God on the matter > is...Blessings, LanceApril 10, 2004 23:24 > Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection > > > > Bill wrote: > > > I bring my knowledge of these truths from the > > > Gospels of Christ with me to my translation of > > > John's epistle. I do not apologize for that. > > > > Yes, it does seem to me that you let your theology force itself upon the > > passage. We all bring such with us, but we should try to let the > > passage speak for itself. I certainly do not disagree with the theology > > you bring, but when it blinds you to other issues being brought forth, > > that is troublesome to me. > > > > Bill wrote: > > > And so you or any Greek scholar are welcome > > > to disagree with my rendering of these Greek > > > words. I ask only that you be honest enough > > > to consider what you are bringing with you > > > when you go to the same text and begin > > > to translate. > > > > I think I am well aware of what I bring with me, but if not, it seems > > like nobody will step up to the plate and tell me about it. Seems like > > too many think it too rude to tell David Miller that he is wrong about > > this and why he is wrong. > > > > Look, you never addressed my main question. I never objected to word > > order at all, but you gave a long lecture about how word order does not > > matter. Fine. No problem there. My problem was with how you perceived > > "pas" to be modifying "oidamen." I have been taught and have observed > > in the Greek Bible that adjectives always agree in case, gender, and > > number with the words they modify. So if this word was being used to > > modify "oidamen" as you say, it should be plural instead of singular. > > In other words, the word would have been rendered "pantes" instead of > > "pas." Therefore, I reject your translation on this basis. If you say > > fine, and leave it at that, then I guess life goes on. However, I think > > a truly honest discussion would consider this point and attempt to help > > me understand my error, or you would recognize that you have brought too > > much of your theology into play here and are missing the aspect that > > John is bringing out here, and that is how Christ becomes incarnated > > within us, how we partake of his divine nature, and how it finds > > expression through us. We truly receive power to become sons of God, as > > John mentions in his gospel. > > > > I also asked you to show some passages which use "pas" as a modifier in > > the way that you suggest, but your response offered none. This is a > > very common word, used more than 1200 times. I have checked many and I > > can't find any. I can only assume from your silence that you have never > > seen it either. I have brought to you other passages that have used > > "pas" in connection "ho" and seems to translate it well as "whosoever." > > No comment from you about that. > > > > In this last post, you seem to want to force "pas" as a modifier and do > > not realize that adjectives often stand alone. Mounce terms this being > > either "adjectivally" or "substantivally." Obviously I take the > > position that "pas" is used substantivally here, but you seem to see no > > option for that. > > > > I presented the interlinears, hoping for you to provide your own, and > > perhaps from there lead to a translation that is appreciative of the > > words used in the text. I was a little confused by your reference to > > "transliteration" when it seemed that you perhaps meant the interlinear > > translation. You seemed to agree with the interlinears I provided, yet > > your translation strays very far away from it. You claim liberty to do > > this because a transliteration is not a translation. Ok. How about > > then providing me with other Greek scholars fluent in Greek who would > > translate this passage as you have. I have searched dozens of > > translations and I can't find one. Many do try and mangle this verse to > > keep it from saying what it obviously says. Their theology, which is > > similar to yours, is obviously being pushed into their translations, yet > > none of them are so bold as to translate this first phrase as speaking > > about Christ rather than all of us who are born of God through faith in > > Christ. > > > > You may be tired of this whole thing and if so, no big deal. I'm ready > > to move on too, but if we leave it at this, I must admit to being a > > little dissatisfied. At the very least, you should say something about > > how an adjective in the singular can be used to modify a word that is > > plural. Why use "pas" instead of "pantes"? > > > > I don't know if you have Mounce's grammar, "Basics of Biblical Greek." > > I decided to pull it off my shelf and take a look because you had > > mentioned that you had met Mounce and appreciated him. Anyway, in > > chapter 9 on adjectives, Mounce says in 9.8, "An adjective has case, > > number, and gender, and will always have the same case, number, and > > gender as the noun it modifies." I realize that this is kind of being > > technical with one authority here, but if what Mounce says is true, on > > what basis do you claim that "pas" in 1 John 5:18 modifies "oidamen"? > > Do you think Mounce is wrong, or is there some other explanation? > > "Oidamen" is plural while "pas" is singular. If you could at least > > consider this one important point, I would appreciate it. > > > > Peace be with you. > > David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. > > > > ---------- > > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
