Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection

[Dave]

David Miller wrote: DaveH wrote: In the LDS realm, grace is the action Jesus did (I don't think I worded it very well) that makes it possible for us to be saved. Had he not atoned for our sins, nor been resurrected so we too can enjoy that gift.....then nothing we could do on our own could bring salvation to ourselves. Therefore.....it is by the grace of Jesus we are saved. That does not mean we do not have to meet certain requirements as many Christians believe. Jesus gave the requirements.... and as I see it, many Christians want to minimize the importance and necessity of some of those requirements. I agree with your criticism of how many Christians do not recognize the standards that God has. It seems that many want to pretend that the law was a mistake to begin with and should never have been given. Nevertheless, Mormons have a phrase that gets to the heart of the problem. What is that phrase that you and Blaine have shared? Something like, "God saves us after we have done all that we can do." DAVEH:  And, pray tell.......what is wrong with that statement?  Does it not apply to Protestant theology too?  If you don't have faith, DavidM.....can one be saved?  According to what Terry implied in a parallel post today, repentance, obedience and good works are all a part of faith.  (Do you disagree?)  Now, if you do all those things.....does that save you?  Not in my opinion.  Yet if you do none of them, do you think you will be saved?  So.....it seems to me that you believe Jesus saves you even if you aren't able to exhibit faith enough of a mustard seed.  IOW.....you do what you can to exercise your faith, and Jesus will save you.  Isn't that what you believe?  That concept is like we do the best we can, and God makes up the difference. DAVEH:  OK....where is that philosophy fail?  Are you saved if you do absolutely nothing?  IOW.....NO FAITH = SALVATION.....?  I doubt you believe that. Many Protestants have a similar phrase, "God helps those who help themselves." This religious proverb is so common among Protestants that many think it is a verse in the Bible. I have heard it quoted as a verse in the Bible many times. DAVEH:  Along with Praise God and pass the ammo......    :-) My perception is that nobody can be saved with this attitude that Mormons and many Protestants have. Many of us here believe in repentance from dead works. This is a deep realization that we can do NOTHING. DAVEH:  Nonsense.  Without faith, repentance and enduring to the end, there is no salvation.  (And if you disagree with any of that, DavidM....please tell me.)  What many don't understand (IMHO) is that IF it were not for Jesus' atoning sacrifice AND resurrection, NOTHING we could do on our own would save us.  That hardly negates the need for us to do something signifying acceptance of that grace from our Savior. Only by a person realizing that all his efforts are vain and dead can he put the kind of absolute trust in Christ that is necessary. DAVEH:  You make it sound like there is a lot of doubt  about Jesus' ability to save us, and that we are busy trying to save ourselves by doing good works.  I don't view it that way at all.  To me, Jesus provided a map on how to get back to heaven.  Those who follow it, will be accepted there.  Those who don't won't find there way back there.  His grace built the bridges that span the chasms that prevent us from achieving that goal.  And if he builds the bridges, gives us the map.....and we ignore it.....then why would anybody be surprised to think they may not find their way back to heaven? If a person thinks that he helps God, DAVEH:  ???  What does that mean?  or that he does what he can and God makes up the slack, then his faith and confidence is partly in himself and partly in God. DAVEH:  I strongly disagree.  It acknowledges that mankind has weaknesses that can only be overcome by the help of the Lord.  And, it effectively levels the playing field.  That doesn't work. God requires 100% dependence upon him. DAVEH:   I've never met anybody who thought he could have brought salvation to himself had Jesus not provided the atoning sacrifice.   So.....I don't see how that comment is pertinent to anything or anybody.  Now that I have said that, I don't think my comment would necessarily have applied to Bible times, as I think there may have been a lot of folks who thought differently back then. Those who have the attitude that they are helping God in their salvation DAVEH:  I don't know where you get such thoughts.  One does not help God by fulfilling the measure of being obedient.  Rather.....By being obedient, one learns to become like God....which is what is needed to return to heaven.  I can't imagine heaven being full of disobedient souls.....can you?  Why do you think Jesus commanded us to become perfect, like our Father in heaven?  Is that not preparatory conditioning that is required for our eventual living in heaven? or even helping Him in their own sanctification, DAVEH:  Again, if I understand you correctly......it seems like you have it backwards.  The Lord gave us commandments to help us prepare to return to heaven (which IMHO is the ultimate  result of salvation)........ they will experience frustration as the Spirit of God will withdraw his power from those who place any confidence whatsoever in their own ability. DAVEH:  .........And if we don't look at his commandments as a preparatory education necessary for our eventual salvation (entrance to heaven), On the other hand, those who stop trying and rely completely upon Christ will experience a power and ability that would otherwise be humanly impossible. DAVEH:   I've known a few kids who thought getting a formal education is not necessary, as they think they can learn more by dropping out of school and eschew the road map laid out by those more wise and historically knowledgeable.  And some kids stay in school, but goof off, taking time wasting classes and not applying themselves to learning for the future.  In most cases, it spells disaster for those kids, as they end up with less than could have been their potential rewards.  Similarly, for Christians to think they can ignore the road map the Lord gave and think nothing more is needed than belief without works is as short sighted as those drop-outs who think life should be a free and easy ride.  If the Lord said enduring to the end is important to salvation, I would think those who suggest otherwise should reconsider their perspective.     As I've suggested before, DavidM......works does not in themselves save us, but rather it is our works that signify our acceptance of the grace of our Saviour's atoning sacrifice.  As an example, it is my opinion that those who are not baptized, are not taking upon themselves the birth, death and sacrifice of Jesus.....and in essence, they effectively are not signing their name to the covenant.  That is why Jesus explained the importance and relationship of baptism and salvation in both Mk 16:16 and Jn 3:5.  I know you have rationalized both passages to harmonize with preconceived Protestant beliefs, but to me it seems obvious the Bible message suggests baptism is related to symbolically washing away sins.  Faith alone is inadequate to do that, even if it is sufficient to move mountains.  Repentance may change one's life to avoid repeating sinful living, but it does not remove one's sins.  That comes by virtue of the atonement.  And to avail one's self of the atoning sacrifice of our Saviour, requires a covenant.  IMHO.....that covenant is ratified by baptism of both water and the Holy Spirit.   Even having done that work though does not ultimately save us.....that won't happen until we endure to the end. Only under this condition can the works of Christ be manifest through us. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.