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Dave, I think we've discussed this before, but
let's do it again. What do you believe happens to little children who die before
coming to faith, repentance, and obedience. Are they lost? Are they saved? If
you believe they are saved, then what saves them: Are they saved by the same
Gospel that brings adults to salvation? Is there a second unspoken Gospel at
play here?
Just wondering,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 10:45
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian
Perfection
David Miller wrote:
DaveH wrote:
In the LDS realm, grace is the action Jesus did (I don't
think I worded it very well) that makes it possible for us
to be saved. Had he not atoned for our sins, nor been
resurrected so we too can enjoy that gift.....then nothing
we could do on our own could bring salvation to ourselves.
Therefore.....it is by the grace of Jesus we are saved.
That does not mean we do not have to meet certain requirements
as many Christians believe. Jesus gave the requirements....
and as I see it, many Christians want to minimize the
importance and necessity of some of those requirements.
I agree with your criticism of how many Christians do not recognize the
standards that God has. It seems that many want to pretend that the law
was a mistake to begin with and should never have been given.
Nevertheless, Mormons have a phrase that gets to the heart of the
problem. What is that phrase that you and Blaine have shared?
Something like, "God saves us after we have done all that we can do."
DAVEH: And, pray tell.......what is wrong with that
statement? Does it not apply to Protestant theology too? If you
don't have faith, DavidM.....can one be saved? According to what Terry
implied in a parallel post today, repentance, obedience and good works are all
a part of faith. (Do you disagree?) Now, if you do all those
things.....does that save you? Not in my opinion. Yet if you do
none of them, do you think you will be saved? So.....it seems to me that
you believe Jesus saves you even if you aren't able to exhibit faith enough of
a mustard seed. IOW.....you do what you can to exercise your faith, and
Jesus will save you. Isn't that what you believe?
That concept is like we do the best we can, and God makes up the
difference.
DAVEH: OK....where is that philosophy
fail? Are you saved if you do absolutely nothing? IOW.....NO FAITH
= SALVATION.....? I doubt you believe that.
Many Protestants have a similar phrase, "God helps those
who help themselves." This religious proverb is so common among
Protestants that many think it is a verse in the Bible. I have heard it
quoted as a verse in the Bible many times.
DAVEH: Along with Praise God and pass the
ammo...... :-)
My perception is that nobody can be saved with this attitude that
Mormons and many Protestants have. Many of us here believe in
repentance from dead works. This is a deep realization that we can do
NOTHING.
DAVEH: Nonsense. Without faith,
repentance and enduring to the end, there is no salvation. (And if you
disagree with any of that, DavidM....please tell me.) What many don't
understand (IMHO) is that IF it were not for Jesus' atoning sacrifice AND
resurrection, NOTHING we could do on our own would save us. That
hardly negates the need for us to do something signifying acceptance of that
grace from our Savior.
Only by a person realizing that all his efforts are vain and
dead can he put the kind of absolute trust in Christ that is necessary.
DAVEH: You make it sound like there is a lot of
doubt about Jesus' ability to save us, and that we are busy trying to
save ourselves by doing good works. I don't view it that way at
all. To me, Jesus provided a map on how to get back to heaven.
Those who follow it, will be accepted there. Those who don't won't find
there way back there. His grace built the bridges that span the chasms
that prevent us from achieving that goal. And if he builds the bridges,
gives us the map.....and we ignore it.....then why would anybody be surprised
to think they may not find their way back to heaven?
If a person thinks that he helps God,
DAVEH:
??? What does that mean?
or that he does what he can and
God makes up the slack, then his faith and confidence is partly in
himself and partly in God.
DAVEH: I strongly
disagree. It acknowledges that mankind has weaknesses that can only be
overcome by the help of the Lord. And, it effectively levels the playing
field.
That doesn't work. God requires 100%
dependence upon him.
DAVEH: I've never met
anybody who thought he could have brought salvation to himself had Jesus not
provided the atoning sacrifice. So.....I don't see how that
comment is pertinent to anything or anybody. Now that I have said that,
I don't think my comment would necessarily have applied to Bible times, as I
think there may have been a lot of folks who thought differently back
then.
Those who have the attitude that they are helping
God in their salvation
DAVEH: I don't know where you
get such thoughts. One does not help God by fulfilling the
measure of being obedient. Rather.....By being obedient, one learns to
become like God....which is what is needed to return to heaven. I can't
imagine heaven being full of disobedient souls.....can you? Why do you
think Jesus commanded us to become perfect, like our Father in heaven?
Is that not preparatory conditioning that is required for our eventual living
in heaven?
or even helping Him in their own sanctification,
DAVEH: Again, if I understand you correctly......it
seems like you have it backwards. The Lord gave us commandments to help
us prepare to return to heaven (which IMHO is the ultimate result of
salvation)........
they will experience frustration as the Spirit of God will withdraw his
power from those who place any confidence whatsoever in their own
ability.
DAVEH: .........And if we don't look at his
commandments as a preparatory education necessary for our eventual salvation
(entrance to heaven),
On the other hand, those who stop trying and rely completely
upon Christ will experience a power and ability that would otherwise be
humanly impossible.
DAVEH: I've known a few kids
who thought getting a formal education is not necessary, as they think they
can learn more by dropping out of school and eschew the road map laid out by
those more wise and historically knowledgeable. And some kids stay in
school, but goof off, taking time wasting classes and not applying themselves
to learning for the future. In most cases, it spells disaster for those
kids, as they end up with less than could have been their potential
rewards. Similarly, for Christians to think they can ignore the road map
the Lord gave and think nothing more is needed than belief without works is as
short sighted as those drop-outs who think life should be a free and easy
ride. If the Lord said enduring to the end is important to
salvation, I would think those who suggest otherwise should reconsider their
perspective.
As I've suggested before,
DavidM......works does not in themselves save us, but rather it is our works
that signify our acceptance of the grace of our Saviour's atoning
sacrifice. As an example, it is my opinion that those who are not
baptized, are not taking upon themselves the birth, death and sacrifice of
Jesus.....and in essence, they effectively are not signing their name to the
covenant. That is why Jesus explained the importance and relationship of
baptism and salvation in both Mk 16:16 and Jn 3:5. I know you have
rationalized both passages to harmonize with preconceived Protestant beliefs,
but to me it seems obvious the Bible message suggests baptism is related to
symbolically washing away sins. Faith alone is inadequate to do that,
even if it is sufficient to move mountains. Repentance may change one's
life to avoid repeating sinful living, but it does not remove one's
sins. That comes by virtue of the atonement. And to avail one's
self of the atoning sacrifice of our Saviour, requires a covenant.
IMHO.....that covenant is ratified by baptism of both water and the Holy
Spirit. Even having done that work though does not
ultimately save us.....that won't happen until we endure to the end.
Only under this condition can the works of Christ
be manifest through us.
Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
--
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Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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