From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
After reading vss 15ff......., I just don't see why you think these apply. When vs 18 says /all/, it is referring to/ ungodliness/ and /unrighteousness/. That is distinctly different from *those *who are ungodly or unrighteous. As vs 16 infers, salvation is for those believers of the gospel of Christ. Until the apostles were given the commission to take the gospel message to the world, there were a lot of folks who were not privy to the gospel. Even after the apostles were instructed to spread the gospel, it could not have been spread to everybody.....even unto this day.
David,
Paul appears to be dividing people into two groups in these passages...those who have heard the gospel (v16,17), and those to whom the evidence of God comes to them not through the gospel but 1) is manifest in them (v19)
DAVEH: I don't see it that way at all, Perry. Vs 19 seems to be referring to those unrighteous people of vs 18 WHO HOLD THE TRUTH *in unrighteousness*. In other words, they are those who know the truth (Christians), yet continue to transgress. That is distinctly different from those who know not the truth, and commit sin unknowingly.
, and 2) through His creation (v20).
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, Perry. In context with who Paul is speaking to, and in context of his sermon, I believe he is referring to those who have had the truth taught to them, and yet ignore it. Look at vs 21......
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful.....
......In my opinion, these folks had had the truth taught to them and failed to grasp it, profess it and live it.
Those who have heard the gospel are without excuse precisely because they have heard the gospel and have the opportunity to respond to it.
Those who have not heard the gospel have an opportunity to respond because of the 2 reasons Paul states.
DAVEH: Again, I strongly and respectfully disagree. Look at it from the standpoint of a kid born in a Muslim country several hundred years ago, far from the influence of Christianity. Even if he saw the glory of God's creation in the world around him, would he have an innate knowledge of Jesus Christ? Or, due to his social and religious environment and upbringing.....would he simply think that Allah created everything he knows and sees? Do you truly believe he would have an understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and reject it? If so, how do you suppose he could embrace it?
Don't ignore what Paul states in Romans 1, David. For those who have not heard the gospel, there is no excuse, either. You seem to be hung up on this 'everyone must have an inate knowledge of Jesus Christ before they can be judged' error. That is an LDS concept, and it is not Biblical.
So, all are without excuse. It is not necessary that one has heard the gospel to face the judgement, or to be redeemed, for that matter. It appears that ALL have had the opportunity to know and worship God, either through the gospel, or for Paul's stated reasons.
DAVEH: From my reading of Paul's address to the Christians of Rome, it seems that /ALL /Christians would be without excuse. To assume otherwise seems to me putting words in Paul's mouth.
The Holy Spirit put the words in Paul's mouth...I just read them. Are you calling me the Holy Spirit? :-)
One might argue that since Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one comes to the Father except by Him, one must hear the gospel and accept it to be redeemed. That apparently is not so.
DAVEH: Why do you think such? Simply because of Paul's chapter in Romans? Are there any other Biblical references that support that theory?
Yes, but I am work and don't have time to track them down. And it may be theory in your LDS perspective, but I think not.
Jesus is the means by which the path to the Father was established. There is no other path. However, it is because he established that path that those who have not heard the gospel, yet acknowledged and worshipped God because of the two reasons Paul states, that they can be redeemed.
I suspect that at some point after a person who has not heard the gospel dies, he or she will become aware of Christ and His role in redemption. But, their decision with respect to what was made manifest in them and what they could see through God's creation will determine their fate, not their post-mortem knowledge of Jesus.
DAVEH: I'm not sure I understand, Perry......Why do you think a /post-mortem knowledge of Jesus/ is invalid?
I do not think a post motem knowledge of Jesus is invlaid...those are your words...I think a post-mortem opportunity to change one's mind is invalid. I indicated that I suppose those who die without a knowledge of Jesus may indeed gain knowledge of his role in redemption after the fact, but that their fate is cast by that time. Like the young man that was seeking just a drop of water...why didn't he just listen to Jesus, repent, move over to the other side, and have all of the water he wanted? Maybe that option was not available to him.
I realize that a lot of Christians feel this way, but I'm not sure why they think death is a cut-off point. To me, the passages in 1Pet 3:18-19 & 4:6 pretty much validate the preaching of the gospel in the post mortal realm to those who die without having received it. Yet you apparently disagree......why??? How do you interpret those verses?
1 Peter 3:18-19 refers to those who preceded the flood (v20), and I am not sure why these people are preached to, but I do know that this case does not cover those between the flood and the resurrection, or those post-resurrection that do not hear the gospel. In Peter 4:6, I believe that the 'dead' are those who are physically alive, but spiritually dead, not those who are physically dead.
David, I know that you must believe that everyone must hear the gospel, whether before they die or after, in order to not make JS look like a liar. But, the LDS view of things is often wrong, being based in the musings and ramblings of a self-proclaimed prophet, shown to be a false prophet to all but the blind. Wake up and smell the postum. There is still time David, but once you die there is no second chance...by then you have already made your decision!
Perry
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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