Ok a little debunking for ya now.
Context:
18A
certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal
life?"
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one
is good--except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not
commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony,
honor your father and mother.'[2] "
21"All these I have kept
since I was a boy," he said.
So what had the rich ruler kept since he was a
boy? He didn't commit adultery, murder, steal, give false testimony,
or dishonor his parents. Is this a complete summation of the
Torah? Of course it is not. That he says he kept these specific
commandments is all we have. To say that Jesus does not challenge him
as a liar is an argument from silence, worth no salt at all. So, so
far we have a rich ruler who kept some of the Torah, not all of
it.
judyt: Jonathan this young ruler
came asking Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life didn't he?
And wasn't it Jesus who listed these five commandments? One of them is
giving false testimony. Are you suggesting that he was in Jesus' face
claiming never to have lied (false testimony) while he was doing just
that?
No
suggestion of this at all. I do suggest that you are making an
argument from silence to prove a point you cannot make. The Torah is
much more than these five commandments. Would you agree? We
have no evidence that the rich young ruler perfectly abided by the Torah,
only that he abided by the five commandments above. To use one of your
mantras, Speak where scripture speaks, be silent where it
doesn't.
jt: This is
Terry's mantra but it is a good one; what makes you think this young man
didn't keep all of them? In Mark the gospel writer says that "Jesus loved
him" which tells me that he must have had a heart for God even though
his worldly goods may still have had too much of a hold on
it..
Luke
1
6Both of them were upright in the sight of God,
observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations
blamelessly.
Jonathan: So what we have here is the fact that John
the Baptist's parents were PRESENT TENSE observing all the Torah. We
have no record that their entire lives were lived blamelessly. We do
have that in their current situation they were obeying the Torah and were
considered upright in the eyes of God. It is wrong to suggest, again
from silence, that they had perfectly kept the Torah for their entire
lives.
judyt: If they are present tense upright
then they were prayed up and keeping short accounts. God calls them
blameless so who are you to nitpick?. He is the one who sets the standard
and He is the one who inspired Luke 1. I'm sure glad you are not the
Judge. And what about Paul? He was also blameless concerning the
righteousness which is in the law (Phil 3:6)
God did not call them blameless. He called them upright
and that they observed (present tense Judy) the commandments and
regulations blamelessly. Remember, when you lose this
argument you will still be just as worthy of love as before. You can
be wrong and
survive.
judyt: You need to get a
Bible taken from the majority text Jonathan; that one says
"blameless"
Jonathan: Again let me point out the major disconnect
here: People on TT are arguing to make Christ less than He was!
They are saying that others fulfilled the Torah, not just Jesus! Any
red heresy flags going up?
judyt: What scripture do you base your
belief that only Jesus could fulfil the law of Moses and why are you
saying that this argument makes Christ less than He was? Why
would God give the people a Law they couldn't keep? Would you give your
child a set of standard he couldn't possibly measure up to? What kind
of love is that? Even if Old
Covenant ppl were blameless so far as the Law was concerned they still had
to keep the feasts and the day of atonement came every year with all that
blood. No the heresy is in making the claim that Jesus' blood is no
different than that of the first Adam which gives him an inheritance in
iniquity and makes him less than a spotless lamb.
John could outline the arguments from
Romans and Galatians better than I. We call this the gospel
:)
judyt: If this is your gospel then you need to be able to
outline the arguments yourself being instant in season and out of
season.
Galatians 3:10-14
judyt: This does not say that nobody (or nobody
except Jesus) is able to keep the law but it is telling us why the
curse is here and incidentally this is the same curse that is all over
the Church, the one that Prov 25 says does not light without a
cause.... So how about that?
10All who rely on observing
the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does
not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[3] 11Clearly
no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous
will live by faith."[4] 12The law is not based on
faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by
them."[5] 13Christ redeemed us from the
curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is
everyone who is hung on a tree."[6] 14He redeemed us in order that
the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ
Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the
Spirit.
judyt: I'm not arguing that
keeping the Law causes anyone to be born again and I am aware that we are no
longer born under the law - It's a New Day for those who walk after the
Spirit and refuse to yeild to the lust of the flesh.
Oh my. Does Paul actually say that clearly
no one is justified before God by the Torah? C'mon it can't
be!
judyt: By the time Paul penned Galatians in 56AD or whenever it
was the Levitical Law had been nailed to the cross for at least 23
years.. However, we have seen here that
some walked blamelessly under the law. Remember Job?
He was a righteous man before any law at all and so was
Enoch.
Does he then say that Christ redeemed us from the
curse of the law by actually becoming a curse for us? That blows the
spotless lamb theory out of the water.
judyt: On the cross Jonathan ON the cross. Wouldn't have
been any point in going to begin with if he was unclean or defiled.
Remember that darkness for 3 hours at midday? Yes He was obedient
to take all of our garbage upon Himself so that we could have the
opportunity to be free and during that time he was totally separated from
the Father for the first time ever- because and for
us.
Are spotless lambs curses too? Heresy would
be to say that Christ sinned. Victory is to say
that Jesus was just like us, had a sinful nature, cleansed it from within in
a daily walk with the Spirit.
judyt: The above statement Jonathan tells me that you have
no idea just how messed up we are and that you do not understand sin,
righteousness, and the judgment to come.
In your revulsion over Christ being just like
you, you are sensing how incredible the grace of God is. If
He was not just like me than he didn't save me from sin. He would
be an anemic Christ. Christ would be in heaven saying, "hey I did it,
now you try. Get on the hamster wheel and start spinning". That
is not the gospel. Stop fixing your eyes on what you think mankind is
capable of and instead fix your eyes on Jesus and what He has already
done. Then rest.
judyt: Yeah right Jonathan.. Nothing to overcome on our
part - right? The enemy just sits down and plays possum while we run
in circles like a bunch of nutty hamsters.. Uh Huh!!
Sure!!
Would I give my child (Noah) a set of standards he couldn't possibly
measure up to? Of course. Every parent does. And every
child fails including my own. I love Noah anyway. You must ask
yourself what the purpose of the law was? It doesn't put us in a right
position with God (it does not justify us). In the same way whether
Noah follows my commandments does not negate the position of son to me, nor
my absolute love for him. Jonathan
judyt: You've been reading and daydreaming about
a novel Jonathan. You have no fear of God and not a clue as
to his righteous judgment. Just like Israel when they were perishing
for lack of knowledge and didn't know their right hand from their
left.
