Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:36:07 -0800

Acts 9:6?
What a great verse to illustrate the foolishness of the new versions!
 
Is Acts 9:5-6 complete in your Bible?
 
"And he said, Who art thou, Lord? AND THE LORD SAID, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest; IT IS HARD FOR THEE TO KICK AGAINST THE PRICKS. AND HE TREMBLING AND ASTONISHED SAID, LORD, WHAT WILT THOU HAVE ME TO DO? AND THE LORD SAID UNTO HIM, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."
 
Confusion abounds in the new versions
The parts in capital letters are where the problems lie. In the first part "and the Lord said" are found in the majority, and TR. However Sinaticus and Vaticanus differ from each other here. Vaticanus omits the verb but it is included in Sinaticus. The NASB puts the phrase in "and He said" , while the NIV omits the phrase altogether plus adds "Saul" which is not in any text.
The NASB of 1972 and 1977 say "rise" while the NASB of 1995 says "get up". So far we see that both Sinaticus differs from Vaticanus, and both differ from the Majority and the TR. The NIV does not faithfully follow any manuscript here but omits even the Sin./Vat. reading and adds the word Saul to the text.
 
Then regarding the second long part, this is found in the TR, Old Latin 150 AD, the Vulgate, one Arabic version, the Ethiopic version, Armenian, and the ancient Georgian version of the 5th century. It is also quoted by the church Fathers of Hilary 367, Ambrose 397, Ephraem 373, and Lucifer in 370.
 
Manuscript D is missing the whole section from 8:29 through 10:14. The Greek manuscripts of the uncial E and the cursive of 431 contain all these words as found in the KJB but they are placed at the end of verse 4 instead of in verse 6, and so reads the Syriac Peshitta translation of Lamsa and James Murdock. The ancient Georgian version (5th century), the Coptic version, Slavonic, Ethiopic and the Middle Egyptian tradition all attest to the authenticity of the phrase. (See Jack Moorman' book 'When the KJV Departs from the "Majority" Text')
 
The verses stand as they are in the KJB, Wycliffe, Tyndale, Great Bible, Bishops and the Geneva Bibles, Calvin's Latin translation, Young's, Green's Modern KJV, the NKJV, the 21st Century KJV, the Third Millenium Bible, Websters's 1833 translation, the Spanish Reina Valera of 1909 and 1960, the Italian Diodati, the Amplified Bible, the Douay-Rheims, Luther's German Bible and the modern German bible, the French Louis Segond, the Albanian Bible, the Dutch Staten Vertaling version, Hungarian, Latvian, Rumanian, Russian, Ukranian, and the Greek version used by the Greek Orthodox church.
 
What we have here is a cluster of divergent readings found in the remaining Greek copies available to us today and neither the KJB, NIV or NASB all read exactly the same as each other.
The Greek text of Stephanus in 1550 as well as the Spanish Sagradas Escrituras Versión Angugua of 1569 both read exactly as the text of the King James Bible. These men obviously had access in their day to underlying Greek texts which we no longer possess. Stephanus amassed a good number of manuscripts to compile his Greek edition. He makes reference to Greek manuscripts that we no longer possess today. Here are the readings of these two sources which existed many years before the KJB 1611.
Acts 9:5:eipen de tiV ei kurie o de kurios eipen egw eimi ihsouV on su diwkeiV sklhron soi pros kentra laktizein
Acts 9:6:tremwn te kai qambwn eipen kurie ti me qeleis poihsai kai o kurios pros auton anasthqi kai eiselqe eiV thn polin kai lalhqhsetai soi ti se dei poiein (Stephanus - 1550)
 
Acts 9:5-6 as they stand in the KJB is found in the following Greek texts.
Erasmus 1516 Stephanus 1550 Theodore Beza 1598 Elzevir 1633 Greek N.T. 1894 (available on the internet) Trinitarian Bible Society N.T. George Ricker Berry's Greek text 1981 J.P Green's Greek interlinear 1976 The Modern Greek N.T. 1954 Modern Greek (available on the internet)
 
It is false to make the assumption that the long phrase found in Acts 9:5-6 was brought directly over from Acts 26:14-16, because the order of events and words recorded there differ from the account given in Acts 9. Three times Paul relates his conversion experience in the book of Acts, and all three are somewhat different - adding to one account what he leaves out in another. They are found in Acts 9:3-9; Acts 22:6-11, and Acts 26:13-18.
 
In both Acts 9 and Acts 26, the Alexandrian texts differ somewhat from the Textus Receptus, but even following the Greek texts of the TR we can see that the words found in Acts 9 were not merely taken directly from Acts 26.
In Acts 9:4-6 we have: "And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And {the Lord said,} I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: {it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him.}..."
The portions in brackets are left out of the NASB, NIV, RSV.
But when we compare the account found in Acts 26:14-15 we see a different set and order of words employed. There we read: "And when we were all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice {speaking} unto me, {and} saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why prsecutest thou me? It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And {he} said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise..."
The words in brackets are either omitted or changed in the texts underlying the NASB, NIV, RSV. Notice the changes from "he fell" to "we were all fallen", "he heard a voice" to "I heard a voice" and more importantly in Acts 9 it is only after Paul asks Who it is and the Lord identifies Himself as Jesus, that we read "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do?"
However in the Acts 26 account Jesus first tells Paul Who He is and that it is hard for Paul to kick against the pricks, and then Paul asks who it is that is speaking to him. Of great importance is the fact that none of these debated words which are omitted in the NASB, NIV, RSV "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do?" are found there in Acts 26. To assert that they were taken from Acts 26 and placed in Acts 9 is patently ridiculous because they do not appear in any texts in Acts 26.
I do not know why you go off on such a tangent?   You are the one who believes this if you believe that the KJV translation "is the only one for me,"   What was used for English speaking folk before the KJV?   Which edition of the received text IS the correct one and why did it take a Dutch Catholic so long to get it right?   And which edition of the KJV is the right one?   The one with all those other books in it, or the Protestant version?    And why did Erasmus add ACts 9:6a?   You above all people know full well that this does not appear in any greek text ?   And what about the last six verses of Revelations?   Erasmus couldn't find those words.   What is of more value, here  --  the actual greek text  (received text) or the man-made translation of that text?   
 
Regarding W & H  -  you have apparently forgotten what I said about them?  
 
I believe that the written message has always been there.  I also believe that God's has never ceased to work His will nor the Power of the Indwelling to have ever been made void.      
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Deegan <openairmission@yahoo.com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:01:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

Just think for all those years the church did not have the word of God just a Single Man-Made translation. UNTIL (1881) God found himself TWO RCC Heretics named Westcott & Hort to RESTORE the Original intent & text! Sort of like a Christianized verison of the JO Smith story!

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Judy,   I spoke of a single edition, not a single-man made edition.    I don't care how many translated it, and neither do you.   the KJV is a production of the will and purpose of mankind.   It is a man-made translation.   But throw out the MSS.   That is certainly your preference.    
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:07:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

Then childishness has taken a lot of ppl to heaven and blessed generations for more than 400yrs.
It wasn't a single man JD, it was 46 different teams that were sanctified or set apart and worked
prayerfully together - so why such vehement opposition from your corner?
 
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:01:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It is not child like faith that disgards the MSS and preaches dependence on a single man-made translation, it is childishness.    :-) 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Moore <cd_moore@earthlink.net>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:40:12 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 11/25/2005 10:15:36 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

You misrepresent the B side of the room.   The final authority is what God wants me to see as I read a given text  .....................   not what a translator wants me to believe.   You want to toss the MSS and trust a given man-made edition of the bible without personal verification  --  be my guest.   I would be an ignorant man to do so  .................  not to mention the limiting effect it would have on what God is doing or teaching me in my life.  
 
jd 
cd: My recommendation for this solution is to have a simple child-like trust in the KJ-This type of trust invokes God and you will understand far more then what you glean from the Greek.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Deegan <openairmission@yahoo.com>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 17:10:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor

cd: This is really scary in leu of level of debate on the Greek and English
languages. The Bible say a child can understand the Gospel-yet side B of
this room are concerned about the present tense and passive voices of a
dead language to explain the Gospel and the brethren have to go there to
help them understand-No wonder Jesus marveled that God hid it from the wise
and gave it to children
 
The CREED of the Alexandrian Cult
There is no final authority but God.
 
Since God is a Spirit, there is no final authority that can be seen, heard, read, felt, or handled.
 
Since all books are material, there is no book on this earth that is the final and absolute authority on what is right and what is wrong: what constitutes truth and what constitutes error.
 
There WAS a series of writings one time ( called the Originals) which, IF they had all been put into a BOOK as soon as they were written the first time, WOULD HAVE constituted an infallible and final authority by which to judge truth and error.
 
However, this series of writings was lost, and the God who inspired them was unable to preserve their content through Bible-believing Christians at Antioch (Syria), where the first Bible teachers were (Acts 13:1), and where the first missionary trip originated (Acts 13:1-52), and where the word 'Christian originated (Acts 11:26).
 
So, God chose to ALMOST preserve them through Gnostics and philosophers from Alexandria, Egypt, even though God called His Son OUT of Egypt (Matthew 2), Jacob OUT of Egypt (Genesis 49), Israel OUT of Egypt (Exodus 15), and Joseph's bones OUT of Egypt (Exodus 13).
 
So, there are two streams of Bibles: the most accurate (though, of course, there is no final, absolute authority for determining truth and error: it is a matter of "preference") are the Egyptian translations from Alexandria, Egypt, which are "almost the originals," although not quite.
 
The most inaccurate translations were those that brought about the German Reformation (Luther, Zwingli, Boehier, Zinzendorf, Spener, etc.) and the worldwide missionary movement of the English-speaking people: the Bible that Sunday, Torrey, Moody, Finney, Spurgeon, Whitefleld, Wesley, and Chapman used.
 
But we can "tolerate these if those who believe in them will tolerate US. After all. Since there is NO ABSOLUTE AND FINAL AUTHORITY that anyone can read, teach, preach. or handle, the whole thing is a matter of "PREFERENCE." You may prefer what you prefer, and we will prefer what we prefer; let us live in peace, and if we cannot agree on anything or everything, let us all agree on one thing: THERE IS NO FINAL, ABSOLUTE, WRITTEN AUTHORITY OF GOD ANYWHERE ON THIS EARTH.


Dean Moore <cd_moore@earthlink.net> wrote:
cd: This is really scary in leu of level of debate on the Greek and English
languages. The Bible say a child can understand the Gospel-yet side B of
this room are concerned about the present tense and passive voices of a
dead language to explain the Gospel and the brethren have to go there to
help them understand-No wonder Jesus marveled that God hid it from the wise
and gave it to children-Point-What do the teachings of Gods words instruct
one to do-Then live by that-for you will be judged by that standard- if the
heart is true to the intent of wanting truth-the proud will never see it
anyway.


> [Original Message]
> From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> Date: 11/24/2005 6:40:45 PM
> Subject : Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
>
> Bill wrote:
> > You highlight the problem with leaving off the
> > present passive aspect of this participle, David;
>
> I have not left off the present passive aspect. In English, we don't
> conjugate the participle this way, but the phrase is clear enough for
those
> of us who understand English. It carries over the present tense and
passive
> voice just fine.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > hence loosing track of the unfinished- or
> > incompleteness of it.
>
> You are reading to much into first year textbook definitions, Bill. I
> expect more from you.
>
> Bill wrote:
> > Do you presume to have finished the race,
> > while waiting for the likes of Paul to catch up?
>
> No, of course not. My comments to Judy make this clear, and illustrate
why
> this thread is so ridiculous. I agree with you about the reality that
> sanctificat ion is an ongoing process. My comments to you concerned the
> exe gesis of this one passage. Your question to me here misses my point
> entirely. Regardless of how I answer your question (and you already know
my
> answer from past posts), the text you exegete is uneffected by the
answer.
> In other words, your question is irrelevant, so why waste the time asking
> it?
>
> Present tense passive voice in English is the same as present tense
passive
> voice in Greek. Why are you trying to make out like it is something
> different? It almost seems like you are presenting a situation where
you,
> as a s tudent of Greek, have personal private knowledge that others lack.
Do
> you really think they are handicapped in understanding this passage
because
> of their lack of formal education in the Greek language?
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
kn o w how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.< BR>


----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an emai l to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
 

                                         judyt                                       
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
                              is a liar (1 John 2:4)


Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

Reply via email to