How? -David
On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: > David: > It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community > driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial > entities. It happens all the time. > > Ruth > > David E Jones wrote: >> Matt, >> >> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after >> technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached >> by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open >> source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a >> change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would >> have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing >> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing >> field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a >> community-driven project so I stuck with that. >> >> Perhaps that was a mistake? >> >> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get >> you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's >> pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who >> abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it >> is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those >> experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts >> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it >> (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the >> info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is >> they just haven't bothered to read it). >> >> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers >> page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: >> there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers >> never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business >> around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I >> were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back >> to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most >> of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the >> project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They >> figure it out on their own for the most part. >> >> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because >> I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for >> some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way? >> >> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to >> be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven >> software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for >> some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog: >> >> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/ >> >> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of >> particular interest: >> >> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html >> >> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a >> mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing >> more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly >> higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting >> software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able >> to get the time of day from technology press folks? >> >> -David >> >> >> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: >> >> >>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the >>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has lots of >>> implications, and deserves careful thought. >>> >>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing >>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a >>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X >>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public >>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. >>> >>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet he loses >>> contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more polished >>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the >>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more >>> inviting to users, who are not developers). >>> >>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you >>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, you need >>> a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz >>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, >>> don't waste our time. >>> Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards. You have the cart driving >>> the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward >>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy >>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even >>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss >>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away >>> for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free samples >>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. >>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also >>> how much it is going to cost. >>> As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at >>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You have >>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz >>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages >>> are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface-- >>> the very things that Ruth complains about. >>> Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial >>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice >>> than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works >>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. >>> If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it >>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited >>> applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest >>> of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost >>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is >>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is >>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there >>> are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers >>> create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more >>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of >>> the reverse. >>> >>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a >>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, >>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. >>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community? >>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. >>> On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Anil: >>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol >>>> towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally: >>>> >>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for >>>> OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software >>>> developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more >>>> importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and >>>> copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository. >>>> >>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new >>>> adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). >>>> I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking >>>> its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like >>>> release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and >>>> training. >>>> >>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought >>>> it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and >>>> well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't >>>> understand. >>>> >>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that >>>> helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one >>>> out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new >>>> OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck >>>> lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a >>>> "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL! >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Ruth >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz" >>>> ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Ruth >>>> >>>> Anil Patel wrote: >>>> >>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >>>>> >>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling >>>>> (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to >>>>> contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the >>>>> concept of "Community driven software development" >>>>> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly >>>>> then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz >>>>> service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and >>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>> Anil Patel >>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Jacques, >>>>>> Why do you think so? >>>>>> >>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make >>>>>> community contribution thing work for them, We got it working for years. >>>>>> >>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of >>>>>> Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how >>>>>> they want to use OfBiz for building their business. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz" >>>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be >>>>>>> harder... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way >>>>>>> (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The strategy : >>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> -- >>> Matt Warnock <mwarn...@ridgecrestherbals.com> >>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. >>> >>> >> >> >>
