Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[Ruth Hoffman]

Maybe you meant this something like this?

http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/browser/tibco.html

BJ Freeman wrote:

Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see something
so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it.
I scan the home page and did not see anything.

Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM:

David E Jones wrote:

Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any
sponsor links. Am I missing something?

No. Look closer.

Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software
Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different
guidelines and restrictions.

Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it
is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by
various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere,
SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a
single company.

Your point is?

So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?

Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The
difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain,
test, release, document, etc is staggering.

Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
test, release, document.

So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...

Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
Ruth

-David


On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

Hi David:

Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source,
Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle.
(http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)

Just my opinion.
Ruth

David E Jones wrote:

How?

-David


On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

David:
It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have
community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy
sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.

Ruth

David E Jones wrote:

Matt,

You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz,
and after technology investing recovered from the lull in
2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to
turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a
community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to
the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an
incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing
and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open
playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have
OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.

Perhaps that was a mistake?

About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and
we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our
time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really
the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on
OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize...
and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced
with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts
whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of
pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it
harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no
documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read
it).

Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
committers page and see how much overlap there is between them.
Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast
majority of service providers never contribute back to the
project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in
profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to
estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets
back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In
other words, most of the customization work is done by people who
don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or
any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the
most part.

On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create,
then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be
any other way?

So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
help build this thing, and for some history about that and
concepts related to it please see my blog:

http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/

There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be
of particular interest:

http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html


So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of
this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the
message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the
commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably
much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and
significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to
get the time of day from technology press folks?

-David


On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:

I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has
lots of
implications, and deserves careful thought.

If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are
willing
to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1)
they see a
product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least
10-100X
in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.

I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet
he loses
contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more
polished
and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
inviting to users, who are not developers).

The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if
you
want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that,
you need
a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution--
otherwise,
don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is
ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people
to buy
records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the
"loss
leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it
away
for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free
samples
because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
People need to know up front what value they are going to get,
and also
how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you
get that information (I looked hard at
OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You
have
to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make
OFBiz
better, and as developers, you probably all know what those
advantages
are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the
surface--
the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP
solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder
choice
than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz
had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some
limited
applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent,
the rest
of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the
incremental cost
(other than learning curve) of using more features and
applications is
zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably,
there

are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! Customers

create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
customers than you can service, and they are looking for you,
instead of
the reverse.

That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. From a

user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user
community?
The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed,
2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

Hi Anil:
I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing
vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks
personally:

First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a
problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out
is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a
product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play
another day, than software development and copious amounts of
code contributed to a source code repository.

Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are
no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you
want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get
any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and
ignoring real world issues like release management, quality
control and my favorite, documentation and training.

And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since
you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help
promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is
that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.

Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a
"product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz.
Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is
reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can
afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford
to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing
OFBiz? LOL!


Regards,
Ruth

----------------------------------------------------
Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
"myofbiz"
ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com


Regards,
Ruth

Anil Patel wrote:

Here is another blog
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html

One interesting issue these Company driven projects are
struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is,
encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this
issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven
software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live
longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open
source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service
providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and
not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive
and moving.

Thanks and Regards
Anil Patel
HotWax Media Inc
Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
"ofbiz"

On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:

Jacques,
Why do you think so?

It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying
to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it
working  for years.

In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community.
In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building
their business.

Thanks and Regards
Anil Patel
HotWax Media Inc
Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
"ofbiz"

On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:

Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it
seems) will be harder...

http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html


Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the
future...

Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not
follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)

The strategy :
http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/


Jacques

--
Matt Warnock <mwarn...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.