Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see something so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it. I scan the home page and did not see anything.
Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM: > > > David E Jones wrote: >> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any >> sponsor links. Am I missing something? >> > No. Look closer. >> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software >> Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different >> guidelines and restrictions. >> >> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it >> is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by >> various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere, >> SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a >> single company. >> > Your point is? >> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do? >> >> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The >> difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain, >> test, release, document, etc is staggering. >> > Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain, > test, release, document. >> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused... >> > Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while > browsing the site might help you to see what I see. > Ruth >> -David >> >> >> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >> >> >>> Hi David: >>> >>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source, >>> Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle. >>> (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html) >>> >>> Just my opinion. >>> Ruth >>> >>> David E Jones wrote: >>> >>>> How? >>>> >>>> -David >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> David: >>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have >>>>> community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy >>>>> sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time. >>>>> >>>>> Ruth >>>>> >>>>> David E Jones wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Matt, >>>>>> >>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, >>>>>> and after technology investing recovered from the lull in >>>>>> 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to >>>>>> turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a >>>>>> community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to >>>>>> the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an >>>>>> incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing >>>>>> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open >>>>>> playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have >>>>>> OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake? >>>>>> >>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and >>>>>> we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our >>>>>> time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really >>>>>> the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on >>>>>> OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... >>>>>> and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced >>>>>> with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts >>>>>> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of >>>>>> pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it >>>>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no >>>>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read >>>>>> it). >>>>>> >>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and >>>>>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. >>>>>> Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast >>>>>> majority of service providers never contribute back to the >>>>>> project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in >>>>>> profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to >>>>>> estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets >>>>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In >>>>>> other words, most of the customization work is done by people who >>>>>> don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or >>>>>> any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the >>>>>> most part. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just >>>>>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, >>>>>> then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be >>>>>> any other way? >>>>>> >>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people >>>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years >>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to >>>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and >>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be >>>>>> of particular interest: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of >>>>>> this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the >>>>>> message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the >>>>>> commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably >>>>>> much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and >>>>>> significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to >>>>>> get the time of day from technology press folks? >>>>>> >>>>>> -David >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one. The question is, what is the >>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers? The question has >>>>>>> lots of >>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are >>>>>>> willing >>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) >>>>>>> they see a >>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least >>>>>>> 10-100X >>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public >>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution. Yet >>>>>>> he loses >>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP. Why? Partly because OpenERP looks more >>>>>>> polished >>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important. However, the >>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more >>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it. For that, >>>>>>> you need >>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers. So if you want an OFBiz >>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- >>>>>>> otherwise, >>>>>>> don't waste our time. Sorry, but that attitude is >>>>>>> ass-backwards. You have the cart driving >>>>>>> the horse. Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward >>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people >>>>>>> to buy >>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers. Even >>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the >>>>>>> "loss >>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it >>>>>>> away >>>>>>> for free, initially. In my business, we give away lots of free >>>>>>> samples >>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products. >>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, >>>>>>> and also >>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you >>>>>>> get that information (I looked hard at >>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't. You >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make >>>>>>> OFBiz >>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those >>>>>>> advantages >>>>>>> are. OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the >>>>>>> surface-- >>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about. Choosing any ERP >>>>>>> solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial >>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder >>>>>>> choice >>>>>>> than most. Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works >>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially. If OFBiz >>>>>>> had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it >>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some >>>>>>> limited >>>>>>> applications. Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, >>>>>>> the rest >>>>>>> of the body will follow. use breeds curiosity, and the >>>>>>> incremental cost >>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and >>>>>>> applications is >>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged. Soon, the customer is >>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make. Cha-ching! >>>>>>> Customers >>>>>>> create themselves. Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more >>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, >>>>>>> instead of >>>>>>> the reverse. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. >>>>>>> From a >>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later, >>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later. >>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user >>>>>>> community? >>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote. On Wed, >>>>>>> 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Anil: >>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing >>>>>>>> vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks >>>>>>>> personally: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a >>>>>>>> problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out >>>>>>>> is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a >>>>>>>> product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play >>>>>>>> another day, than software development and copious amounts of >>>>>>>> code contributed to a source code repository. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are >>>>>>>> no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you >>>>>>>> want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get >>>>>>>> any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and >>>>>>>> ignoring real world issues like release management, quality >>>>>>>> control and my favorite, documentation and training. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since >>>>>>>> you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help >>>>>>>> promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is >>>>>>>> that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a >>>>>>>> "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. >>>>>>>> Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is >>>>>>>> reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can >>>>>>>> afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford >>>>>>>> to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing >>>>>>>> OFBiz? LOL! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> Ruth >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword >>>>>>>> "myofbiz" >>>>>>>> ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> Ruth >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here is another blog >>>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are >>>>>>>>> struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, >>>>>>>>> encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this >>>>>>>>> issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven >>>>>>>>> software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live >>>>>>>>> longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open >>>>>>>>> source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service >>>>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and >>>>>>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive >>>>>>>>> and moving. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword >>>>>>>>> "ofbiz" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jacques, >>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying >>>>>>>>>> to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it >>>>>>>>>> working for years. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. >>>>>>>>>> In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to >>>>>>>>>> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building >>>>>>>>>> their business. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards >>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel >>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc >>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword >>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it >>>>>>>>>>> seems) will be harder... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the >>>>>>>>>>> future... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not >>>>>>>>>>> follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The strategy : >>>>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jacques >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Matt Warnock <mwarn...@ridgecrestherbals.com> >>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >
