Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[Ruth Hoffman]

David E Jones wrote:
Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any sponsor 
links. Am I missing something?
  
No. Look closer.
Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software Foundation 
(is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different guidelines and restrictions.

Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it is 
probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by various 
companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere, SugarCRM and such 
where the code is owned and distributed through a single company.
  
Your point is?
So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?

Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The difference in 
magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain, test, release, 
document, etc is staggering.
  
Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain, 
test, release, document.
So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...
  
Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while 
browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
Ruth
-David


On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

  
Hi David:

Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source, Apache 2.0 
with sponsor links very subtle. (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)

Just my opinion.
Ruth

David E Jones wrote:
    
How?

-David


On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

 
      
David:
It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community 
driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens 
all the time.

Ruth

David E Jones wrote:
   
        
Matt,

You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after 
technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by 
a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source 
project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in 
licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an 
incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license 
value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my 
intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I 
stuck with that.

Perhaps that was a mistake?

About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a 
custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting 
and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to 
work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is 
the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would 
be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of 
it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they 
want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't 
bothered to read it).

Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page 
and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't 
much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute 
back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in 
profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say 
it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that 
contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is 
done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for 
training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the 
most part.

On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm 
willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some 
big disappointment! And how could it be any other way?

So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be 
a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software 
and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history 
about that and concepts related to it please see my blog:

http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/

There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular 
interest:

http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html

So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a 
mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more 
and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay 
out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and 
significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time 
of day from technology press folks?

-David


On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:

      
          
I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has lots of
implications, and deserves careful thought.

If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing
to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a
product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X
in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.

I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet he loses
contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more polished
and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
inviting to users, who are not developers).

The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you
want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that, you need
a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise,
don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards.  You have the 
cart driving
the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy
records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss
leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away
for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free samples
because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also
how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that 
information (I looked hard at
OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You have
to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz
better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages
are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface--
the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP solution is a 
hard, painful task, and the initial
difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice
than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz had a polished, truly 
"OOTB" solution, then users could try it
and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited
applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest
of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost
(other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is
zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there
are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!  Customers
create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of
the reverse.

That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.  From a
user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community?
The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 
14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
          
            
Hi Anil:
I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol 
towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally:

First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The 
"community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There 
is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play 
another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a 
source code repository.

Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new 
adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I 
further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its 
collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release 
management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training.

And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it 
up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the 
OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.

Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote 
the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is 
reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of 
Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" 
backing OFBiz? LOL!


Regards,
Ruth

----------------------------------------------------
Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
ruth.hoff...@myofbiz.com


Regards,
Ruth

Anil Patel wrote:
              
              
Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html

One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these 
blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is 
build on the concept of "Community driven software development" I feel confident that 
OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged 
by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell 
services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving.

Thanks and Regards
Anil Patel
HotWax Media Inc
Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"

On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:


                  
                
Jacques,
Why do you think so?

It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make 
community contribution thing work for them, We got it working  for years.

In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache 
Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to 
use OfBiz for building their business.

Thanks and Regards
Anil Patel
HotWax Media Inc
Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"

On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:


                      
                  
Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...

http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html

Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future...

Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though 
I"m not sure for ERP5)

The strategy : 
http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/

Jacques


                          
                    
                  
                
--
Matt Warnock <mwarn...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.