Good Points.. One thing I might add is that the Title mentioned J2EE w Struts vs .Net and I don't think this is a fair comparison. Struts has a steep learning curve but when used you have a good MVC type model with all the benefits.
IMHO (I'm also 98% J2EE) With .Net Out of the box, you wont get all of the MVC like qualities and can create really messy apps. If you want MVC you need to get one of their code blocks www.microsoft.com/patterns . Need logging..you need another code block, want good exception handling..another code block. Once you add all these in, the learning curve goes up for .Net . I see things being more equal at that point. Go to apache and download logging, etc or go to /patterns and download blocks..its roughly the same. You then begin to rely on implementing good design patterns in either app just like someone else mentioned. As far as the IDE, I've used VS for our few .Net apps and for your first iteration on a page I haven't seen anything faster. The widgets etc are fairly nice. Paging, Sorting etc isn't for free but close. In my limited experience, when I really need to get control of the object (i.e. change a grid for example in a very customized way ) I end up pulling my hair out. I end up using a repeater( a <c:forEach> type tag) and at that point you're on level ground again. However I expect when the next version of VS comes out ( wigby or something like that) it will make binding etc even easier. I would be interested to hear opinions regarding gui apps and the choice of product if people think RIA can help in this area etc. Burke -----Original Message----- From: Frank Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two reasonably complex .Net web projects... Forget comparing the two for a moment and just look at .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say about it on it's own. Microsoft has frankly put out something that is technically a fine piece of work. SO FAR it has proven to be relatively stable and even secure, no worse than Java was at first anyway, and better in some ways. As far as ease of use, I personally haven't used Visual Studio.Net much, I prefer being "closer to the metal", so to speak (in this case, that means doing mostly command line work and using UltraEdit, just as I do my Java development). I think you do get the "trained monkey symdrome" to a degree when VS.Net is in the mix, but that's not automatically true. Design patterns can and are realized in .Net just like in J2EE. In short... If J2EE didn't exist, .Net would be an excellent solution. Yes, there is obviously vendor lock-in, and yes you have to be worried about security and what might be found down the road (so far so good though). Performance is excellent, stability is excellent, and so on. Now, in terms of comparisons... J2EE allows you more flexibility certainly in terms of vendor support. J2EE has I think more of a community around it and more projects that can solve a multitide of problems. I think it is a bit easier and more natural to design in a cleaner and logical manner with J2EE than with .Net. I think .Net wins in tool maturity because I've yet to see anything that matches VS.Net overall (this is a highly debateable point to be sure). J2EE has had more time to get the kinks worked out and it's currently a very mature platform (although .Net out of the gate was considerably further along than Java was at the start, J2EE is still ahead). .Net gives you some flexibility in terms of language support, although I think this is a bit overrated because even in the .Net shots I'm aware of they have generally standardized on one language or another (usually C#). True, there are some other language implemented in the JVM, but generally speaking it's a Java-only world. J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed applications, although I will say that my opinion is that even today with all the strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues aside, which aren't small concerns in some cases). Overall, anyone that says J2EE is FAR superior to .Net, or anyone that says the opposite, is *probably* a zealot one way or the other and not really worth listening to. Anyone with an objective opinion who doesn't let their hatred of Redmond get in the way will generally say that the two are at least comperable in most ways. Hate MS all you want, but they really have done a great engineering job with .Net... Whether it's better than J2EE is vertainly up for debate (my opinion: I still give the Jave world the nod, but not by a huge margin). Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies www.omnytex.com >From: Vic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:10:30 -0500 > > >And of course... there's a little thing could profit. >Keep your hands of my stash. W/ any O/S, I get better quality and keep more >of my penies, important for profesional developers. > >But specificaly, I have not used VB or C# Express, so it's hard for me to >compare >detials. It be great to hear from somone who deplpyed both in >production. > > >.V > > >Jim Barrows wrote: >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anders Jacobsen >>>Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:01 PM >>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>Subject: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET >>> >>> >>>Hi >>> >>>I think this place would be a good place to good some colored ;) comments >>>on and Web applications implemented with J2EE w./ Struts and the same >>>implemented with ASP.NET. >>> >>>Microsoft people tends to have just one point-of-view so I hope I could >>>find >>>some people who preferable had experience with both frameworks. >>> >>>I know itīs hard to find a winnner, but some con/pros from real >>>developers would be of great value. The main functionality of the web >>>application is edit/upate/delete operations and the like. >> >> >>Well... let's start off with the fact that MS is NOT secure. If security >>is an >>issue, then MS's record to date is very worrisome. Yes, they've >>cleaned up their >>act a bit... however their problems are very deep in the >>fundamental way they do things. You can find some good discussions >>elsewhere. >> >>Engineering would be next. In general the J2EE world's core tends to be >>better >>engineered. EJB being something of an exception, depending on who >>you talk to. I've seen more discussions of best practices and patterns on >>J2EE lists then I have on .Net lists. This may be more because I haven't >>chosen >>high quality lists. This may also be due to the higher incidence >>of trained monkey's in the MS world then software engineered. >> >>Trained monkey's would be next. MS seems to attract developers who don't >>have any >>true understanding of how things work. I'm not sure why. It >>might be because >>they've made it so point and click that no one really >>understands what's going on, >>and even if they did they might not be able >>to do anything about it. I've seen >>far more "How do I show 1,000 items in >>a drop down list box?" type questions on MS lists then I have on Java >>lists. THe few I have seen, have all come from MS developers. MS has >>focused on providing cheap easy solutions, which is fine for the single >>computer >>model the has dominated so much of MS's history. There are very >>few cheap and easy solutions when developing enterprise wide software. >> >>Last, and to a large degree, the most important is choice. I don't have >>to use >>Sun's VM. I don't have to use implementation of the JSP/Servlet >>spec. I don't >>have to use IBM's implementation either. I'm not tied to a >>database (ODBC is _NOT_ what I would call good database independance) >>vendor. I'm not tied to an OS Vendor, which means I'm not tied to a >>hardware platform. You can't run .Net on Sun, or AS400's or any hardware >>other >>then Intel. All of this means one thing... I can customize any Java >>based solution to fit any need. >> >> >>>Thanks in regards >>>Anders >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >> >> > > >-- >Please post on Rich Internet Applications User Interface (RiA/SoA) ><http://www.portalvu.com> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ********************************************************************** This e-mail is the property of Enron Corp. and/or its relevant affiliate and may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient (s). Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender or reply to Enron Corp. at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and delete all copies of the message. This e-mail (and any attachments hereto) are not intended to be an offer (or an acceptance) and do not create or evidence a binding and enforceable contract between Enron Corp. (or any of its affiliates) and the intended recipient or any other party, and may not be relied on by anyone as the basis of a contract by estoppel or otherwise. Thank you. ********************************************************************** --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
