I definitely don't want to spark anything. I'm just looking for any
obvious prohibitions to using a fully re-entrant tuning with Roncalli.
For me, first indications are good. But I'm fairly unwashed... I take
your statement that he says nothing, to mean that I should go with what
feels good. That makes me feel young again!
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 3:25:16 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Funny that it shouldn't have reached you before. I agree that the
re-entrant tuning works perfectly for most of the repertoire. It is a
misconception that the re-entrant tuning is somehow inadequate.
As for Roncalli - as has already been pointed out he doesn't say
anything at all on the subject. And as I have already said before I
prefer the versions I have heard without a bordon on the 5th course.
I think that the re-entrant tuning was probably the most widely used in
Italy.
But perhaps it is better not to spark off yet another discussion on
this topic. (But I have already done so).
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]Chris Despopoulos
To: [2]Monica Hall
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Ha! I found this in my SPAM folder for some reason.
I do not disagree in principle with this compromise. I tried it out
for Sanz, however, and for *my* taste and for the expectations I have
built up from close to a year of playing with no bordones, I can't get
a satisfactory sound for Sanz with the bordon on the 4th course.
That's just me.
Oh, and I'm spreading out to Roncalli now, and I'm pretty happy with
the sound so far sin bordones. But again, that's just me. Of course,
I wonder whether that's accurate, and hope to ask without starting a
row.
If I pick up Corbetta's La Guitarre Royale, I will of necessity add the
4th bordon... Thanks your informed understanding of the music.
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: Harlan Glotzer <hargloresea...@gmail.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:37:23 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
As far as I am concerned a bourdon on the 4th course but not on the 5th
is the answer to every maiden's prayer. It is compromise, and in the
real world compromises are what work best. And I think we should
re-christen it the "English" tuning because it is the tuning Corbetta
intended for his La guitarre royale. He composed all the music in it
whilst he was in England and dedicated it to good King Charles II
Chris probably wont agree with me....
Whatever you do - enjoy.
Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Harlan Glotzer"
<[3]hargloresea...@gmail.com>
To: "Chris Despopoulos" <[4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Monica Hall" <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Vihuelalist"
<[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies!
I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would
be (bourdons on 4 & 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand
that there is no "silver bullet" stringing that will be perfect for
everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be
first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing
limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the
works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would
limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people,
etc.
I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and
plunge in. :p
On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos
<[7]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the
> stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do
> just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the
construction
> of the instrument, indeed.
> I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the
> musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a
full
> re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little
> levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any
success
> on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks
for
> the clarification.
> cud
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Monica Hall <[8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> To: Chris Despopoulos <[9]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
> Cc: Vihuelalist <[10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
> Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning
> "Spanish".
> The Spanish would turn in their graves.
> What dear old Sanz says is
> In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the
> guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the
fourth
> or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use
two
> bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at
> least, as is usual, one on each course.
> In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th
> course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the
> re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe
the
> tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also
implies
> that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia
> keeps his own counsel on the matter.
> Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning
> must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you.
> So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing
even
> if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the
> stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is
> constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you
wish.
> Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now.
> Monica
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Despopoulos"
> <[1][11]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Harlan Glotzer" <[2][12]hargloresea...@gmail.com>;
> <[3][13]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
>> Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur...
>> I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as
> you
>> move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my
> guitar
>> uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very
>> reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches,
> realizes
>> ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques.
>> If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your
> instrument
>> in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported
> (or
>> not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including
> Gaspar
>> Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no
> bass
>> strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself,
>> look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that
> topic
>> can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with
>> fingernails was in Tarrega's day.)
>> I can say the following:
>> 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant
> manner.
>> 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality
> of
>> the
>> pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar
>> Sanz.
>> 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is
> concerned.
>> In fact,
>> I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism
> (sadly,
>> it approaches New Age
>> much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the
> only
>> limitations were my own.
>> If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web
> site.
>> 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be
>> liberating -- for now at least.
>> 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing.
>> Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you.
> You
>> will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern
>> guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is "upside down" for modern
> musicians,
>> which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have
> with
>> the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is
> an
>> instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as
>> yet-another-variation on the modern guitar. That would be like
> saying
>> the electric guitar and the classical guitar are the same
> instrument.
>> On the other hand, your disadvantages will largely be with yuor
> right
>> hand, in my opinion. I happen to believe that's the more important
>> hand. The left hand is what drives the harmony and text, but the
> right
>> hand is what turns it into music. As you listen to baroque playing,
>> you should close your eyes and try to *feel* how it is to make your
>> right hand do all that.
>> I wish you the best of luck with your plans to build the guitar. As
>> you get to specific issues, I'm sure people on this list can offer
> much
>> information -- historical and practical.
>> Cheers cud
>> __________________________________________________________________
>>
>> From: Harlan Glotzer <[4][14]hargloresea...@gmail.com>
>> To: "[5][15]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"
<[6][16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 1:59:05 PM
>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar, where to start?
>> Hello all,
>> I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up
> to
>> build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited
> by
>> the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have
> built
>> instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a
>> friend of mine is a luthier so I should be able to get some of my
>> questions fielded).
>> Two questions, however, that seem to elude me concern frets and
>> strings. Do I need to gauge my frets as I move up the neck? Or can
> I
>> just use a fixed gauge of gut/nylon/etc?
>> The other is a more performance oriented question. What
>> stringing/tuning scheme would you suggest for a beginner? I seem go
> be
>> most drawn to the Spanish music, but am a complete beginner on the
>> guitar, and I'm also afraid the Spanish tuning will limit what I can
>> play (I'd like to experiment with new/modern music as well). What
>> tuning/stringing do you prefer and why?
>> Any advice on building, fretting, tuning, and the playing of the
>> baroque guitar would be most helpful.
>> Thanks!
>> Harlan
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [1][7][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>> --
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. [8][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[19]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
> 2. mailto:[20]hargloresea...@gmail.com
> 3. mailto:[21]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. mailto:[22]hargloresea...@gmail.com
> 5. mailto:[23]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 6. mailto:[24]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 7. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 8. [26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com
4. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
8. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
10. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
12. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com
13. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com
15. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
16. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
19. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
20. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com
21. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
22. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com
23. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
24. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
