Well, I think that's the big issue. There's a storm of controversy swirling around this very question, if I have followed the mailing list correctly. Gaspar Sanz has hinted rather strongly (in my opinion) that he prefers a full re-entrant stringing. A year ago, when I started on the instrument I went through exactly this problem. It was all the more difficult for me because I had played many Sanz pieces on the modern guitar -- it's downright wierd to get used to the lowest string in the middle of the instrument. But after heated rounds of messages, I gave up all thoughts of trying to selectively play the treble or bass string of the 4th and 5th courses (even that is controversial, and there are people who do this -- you must hear their results for yourself) -- for me it's too difficult to do it convincingly. So to prove to myself, I recorded some Sanz pieces with fully re-entrant stringing.. The results are on my site ([1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/) and rough as they are they convinced me to carry on that way. I've done so with Sanz for about a year now. In my experience there are *very few* if any Sanz pieces that don't work. For his first fugue I find it helps to add the higher G on a few phrases. I'd say that's the most problematic piece I've encountered in his work. Indeed, with bordones on 4th and 5th it sounds very rich. But to my ears there are many of his pieces that sound horrible with either of the bordones. (How jaded we become...) I also got the Libro de Diferentes Cifras (m/811, 1705), edited by Francisco Alfonso Valdivia -- Monica is credited as a collaborator (sounds subversive). I have found that very many of those pieces also work with fully re-entrant stringing. The campanelas in the Paracumbres, for example, would be unthinkable to me with bordones. On the other hand, the second-to-last variation is redundant without bordones. Not a problem, but questionable. The book seems to be a catalog rather than a singular obra, so I doubt it can answer your question. I'm branching out to Roncalli, as the thread indicates. So far so good, but I have to get the manuscript. So far I just have a free PDF that has the tablature flipped around (not sure why...). For the Sonate en Ottavo Tuono I see no problems whatsoever with full re-entrance... Assuming the PDF is faithful. In fact, it seems to beg for fully re-entrant tuning... The Preludio rings out wonderfully, the chords in the Alamanda and Corrente are light. My understanding (from Sanz, anyway) is that yes, those wacky Italians liked full re-entrance -- at least at the time that Sanz published his book. I glean from the history I've read that fashion was important and capricious, and I can only assume this was yet-another fashion. How did it start, why, etc. are all questions I certainly can't answer. Again, see the archives of this list, look to existing publications... Monica is recognized in this very field. My personal hypothesis is that the 6-string guitar would not have developed without the benefit of bordones. Indeed, the 6-course guitar (double-strung) seems to have a short life in the period, and gives way to single courses very quickly. I beg forgiveness and correction if I'm wrong on that. In my opinion, there's no logical reason to have a fully re-entrant 6-course guitar. You end up repeating a note on one course or the other. That hints to me that for as long as there was 5-course writing going on, re-entrance was a subcurrent that was either acknowledged (expressly or tacitly) or expressly denied (I think Guerau insisted on bordones, didn't he? And as Monica pointed out, wasn't it Corbetta who wrote for the English, aka English tuning?). But I can't say that gives you a trajectory -- later works wanting bordones and earlier works not. I just don't think that follows. But again, my *experience* is limited at present to the above mentioned works. I'm just an amateur here. It's all great fun, and I hope you take it in that way! cud __________________________________________________________________
From: Harlan Glotzer <hargloresea...@gmail.com> To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>; Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wed, February 2, 2011 9:01:12 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Again forgive my newness, but this sparks an interesting question for me. Is there a list of composers who had the fully reenterant tuning in mind/played that way? I'm understanding now it was a largely Italian choice, but what pieces/composers/players should I look to with this tuning? Thanks!!! :) Harlan On Feb 1, 2011, at 1:54 AM, "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > That's it. do what you think works best. You have my blessing... > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Despopoulos" <[3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> > To: "Monica Hall" <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 8:37 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? > > >> I definitely don't want to spark anything. I'm just looking for any >> obvious prohibitions to using a fully re-entrant tuning with Roncalli. >> For me, first indications are good. But I'm fairly unwashed... I take >> your statement that he says nothing, to mean that I should go with what >> feels good. That makes me feel young again! >> cud >> __________________________________________________________________ >> From: Monica Hall <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >> To: Chris Despopoulos <[7]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> >> Cc: Vihuelalist <[8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 3:25:16 AM >> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? >> Funny that it shouldn't have reached you before. I agree that the >> re-entrant tuning works perfectly for most of the repertoire. It is a >> misconception that the re-entrant tuning is somehow inadequate. >> As for Roncalli - as has already been pointed out he doesn't say >> anything at all on the subject. And as I have already said before I >> prefer the versions I have heard without a bordon on the 5th course. >> I think that the re-entrant tuning was probably the most widely used in >> Italy. >> But perhaps it is better not to spark off yet another discussion on >> this topic. (But I have already done so). >> Monica >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: [1]Chris Despopoulos >> To: [2]Monica Hall >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:41 AM >> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? >> Ha! I found this in my SPAM folder for some reason. >> I do not disagree in principle with this compromise. I tried it out >> for Sanz, however, and for *my* taste and for the expectations I have >> built up from close to a year of playing with no bordones, I can't get >> a satisfactory sound for Sanz with the bordon on the 4th course. >> That's just me. >> Oh, and I'm spreading out to Roncalli now, and I'm pretty happy with >> the sound so far sin bordones. But again, that's just me. Of course, >> I wonder whether that's accurate, and hope to ask without starting a >> row. >> If I pick up Corbetta's La Guitarre Royale, I will of necessity add the >> 4th bordon... Thanks your informed understanding of the music. >> cud >> __________________________________________________________________ >> From: Monica Hall <[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >> To: Harlan Glotzer <[10]hargloresea...@gmail.com> >> Cc: Vihuelalist <[11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:37:23 PM >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? >> As far as I am concerned a bourdon on the 4th course but not on the 5th >> is the answer to every maiden's prayer. It is compromise, and in the >> real world compromises are what work best. And I think we should >> re-christen it the "English" tuning because it is the tuning Corbetta >> intended for his La guitarre royale. He composed all the music in it >> whilst he was in England and dedicated it to good King Charles II >> Chris probably wont agree with me.... >> Whatever you do - enjoy. >> Monica >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harlan Glotzer" >> <[3][12]hargloresea...@gmail.com> >> To: "Chris Despopoulos" <[4][13]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> >> Cc: "Monica Hall" <[5][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Vihuelalist" >> <[6][15]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? >> Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! >> I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would >> be (bourdons on 4 & 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand >> that there is no "silver bullet" stringing that will be perfect for >> everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be >> first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing >> limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the >> works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would >> limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, >> etc. >> I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and >> plunge in. :p >> On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos >> <[7][16]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> > Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the >> > stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do >> > just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the >> construction >> > of the instrument, indeed. >> > I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the >> > musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a >> full >> > re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little >> > levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any >> success >> > on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks >> for >> > the clarification. >> > cud >> > __________________________________________________________________ >> > >> > From: Monica Hall <[8][17]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >> > To: Chris Despopoulos <[9][18]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> >> > Cc: Vihuelalist <[10][19]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM >> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? >> > Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning >> > "Spanish". >> > The Spanish would turn in their graves. >> > What dear old Sanz says is >> > In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the >> > guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the >> fourth >> > or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use >> two >> > bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at >> > least, as is usual, one on each course. >> > In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th >> > course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the >> > re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe >> the >> > tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also >> implies >> > that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia >> > keeps his own counsel on the matter. >> > Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning >> > must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. >> > So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing >> even >> > if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the >> > stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is >> > constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you >> wish. >> > Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. >> > Monica >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Despopoulos" >> > <[1][11][20]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> >> > To: "Harlan Glotzer" <[2][12][21]hargloresea...@gmail.com>; >> > <[3][13][22]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM >> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? >> >> Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... >> >> I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as >> > you >> >> move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my >> > guitar >> >> uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very >> >> reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, >> > realizes >> >> ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. >> >> If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your >> > instrument >> >> in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported >> > (or >> >> not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including >> > Gaspar >> >> Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no >> > bass >> >> strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, >> >> look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that >> > topic >> >> can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with >> >> fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) >> >> I can say the following: >> >> 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant >> > manner. >> >> 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality >> > of >> >> the >> >> pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar >> >> Sanz. >> >> 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is >> > concerned. >> >> In fact, >> >> I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism >> > (sadly, >> >> it approaches New Age >> >> much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the >> > only >> >> limitations were my own. >> >> If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web >> > site. >> >> 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be >> >> liberating -- for now at least. >> >> 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing. >> >> Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you. >> > You >> >> will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern >> >> guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is "upside down" for modern >> > musicians, >> >> which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have >> > with >> >> the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is >> > an >> >> instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as >> >> yet-another-variation on the modern guitar. That would be like >> > saying >> >> the electric guitar and the classical guitar are the same >> > instrument. >> >> On the other hand, your disadvantages will largely be with yuor >> > right >> >> hand, in my opinion. I happen to believe that's the more important >> >> hand. The left hand is what drives the harmony and text, but the >> > right >> >> hand is what turns it into music. As you listen to baroque playing, >> >> you should close your eyes and try to *feel* how it is to make your >> >> right hand do all that. >> >> I wish you the best of luck with your plans to build the guitar. As >> >> you get to specific issues, I'm sure people on this list can offer >> > much >> >> information -- historical and practical. >> >> Cheers cud >> >> __________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> From: Harlan Glotzer <[4][14][23]hargloresea...@gmail.com> >> >> To: "[5][15][24]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu" >> <[6][16][25]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 1:59:05 PM >> >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar, where to start? >> >> Hello all, >> >> I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up >> > to >> >> build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited >> > by >> >> the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have >> > built >> >> instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a >> >> friend of mine is a luthier so I should be able to get some of my >> >> questions fielded). >> >> Two questions, however, that seem to elude me concern frets and >> >> strings. Do I need to gauge my frets as I move up the neck? Or can >> > I >> >> just use a fixed gauge of gut/nylon/etc? >> >> The other is a more performance oriented question. What >> >> stringing/tuning scheme would you suggest for a beginner? I seem go >> > be >> >> most drawn to the Spanish music, but am a complete beginner on the >> >> guitar, and I'm also afraid the Spanish tuning will limit what I can >> >> play (I'd like to experiment with new/modern music as well). What >> >> tuning/stringing do you prefer and why? >> >> Any advice on building, fretting, tuning, and the playing of the >> >> baroque guitar would be most helpful. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Harlan >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> >> [1][7][17][26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> References >> >> >> >> 1. [8][18][27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > >> > References >> > >> > 1. mailto:[19][28]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com >> > 2. mailto:[20][29]hargloresea...@gmail.com >> > 3. mailto:[21][30]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> > 4. mailto:[22][31]hargloresea...@gmail.com >> > 5. mailto:[23][32]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> > 6. mailto:[24][33]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> > 7. [25][34]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > 8. [26][35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > >> -- >> References >> 1. mailto:[36]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com >> 2. mailto:[37]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >> 3. mailto:[38]hargloresea...@gmail.com >> 4. mailto:[39]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com >> 5. mailto:[40]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >> 6. mailto:[41]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 7. mailto:[42]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com >> 8. mailto:[43]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >> 9. mailto:[44]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com >> 10. mailto:[45]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 11. mailto:[46]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com >> 12. mailto:[47]hargloresea...@gmail.com >> 13. mailto:[48]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 14. mailto:[49]hargloresea...@gmail.com >> 15. mailto:[50]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 16. mailto:[51]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 17. [52]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 18. [53]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 19. mailto:[54]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com >> 20. mailto:[55]hargloresea...@gmail.com >> 21. mailto:[56]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 22. mailto:[57]hargloresea...@gmail.com >> 23. mailto:[58]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 24. mailto:[59]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 25. [60]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 26. [61]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > -- References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 7. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 8. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 10. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com 11. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com 13. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 14. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 15. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 16. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 17. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 18. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 19. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 20. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 21. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com 22. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 23. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com 24. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 25. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 27. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 28. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 29. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com 30. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 31. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com 32. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 33. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 34. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 35. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 36. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 37. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 38. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com 39. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 40. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 41. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 42. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 43. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 44. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 45. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 46. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 47. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com 48. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 49. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com 50. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 51. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 52. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 53. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 54. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 55. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com 56. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 57. mailto:hargloresea...@gmail.com 58. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 59. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 60. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 61. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
