Thanks Stuart - I really wasn't complaining.
Re yr message - I guess we'll just have to beg to differ.
But the only reason why this matter is so significant is, of course,
because if one believes there's always (or generally) a need for a
proper though bass line then it reinforces the requirement for bourdons
but if, as I believe, much of this music is really melody punctuated
and supported by harmony as chords then the need for bourdons is
clearly much less. I also think the use of a skeletal bass line even
supports this ie they are using the odd (often tonic) bass as short
harmonic reminder - if you see what I mean. In short, not so very
different from your 'English' guittar....
rgds
Martyn
--- On Tue, 8/2/11, Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Monica Hall"
<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 11:26
On 08/02/2011 10:53, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> Hello Stuart,
>
> Didn't you read me email quite through? - I specifically wrote
about
> Granata's Op 5! You'll see I take it as a good example of not
> overbothering about a proper through bass line and thus an
example of
> melodic writing interspersed with chords rather than an example
of two
> part writing and this obliging us to provide a through bass on
the
> guitar.
>
> And yes, the 'viola' is what many Italian sources of this period
call a
> bass violin (ie not a violoncello). Only later did it come to
refer
> exclusively to the tenor of the violin family.
>
> rgds
>
> M
Martyn
I did read your email! I was just (politely, of course) disagreeing
with
your idea that:
You'll see I take it as a good example of not overbothering about a
proper through bass line and thus an example of
melodic writing interspersed with chords rather than an example of
two-part writing...
I suppose the line between "melodic writing interspersed with chords"
and (rudimentary) two part writing is a fine one. But just now looking
over th Granata pieces (the ones with violin/'viola') - although there
is the odd bar or two of melodic flow, I'd say 90% or so is basic
two-part (i.e.utterly typical guitar) writing.
Stuart
> --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Stuart Walsh<[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> From: Stuart Walsh<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar -
again
> To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Monica Hall"
> <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 10:47
>
> On 08/02/2011 10:09, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> Dear Stuart,
> You write
> 'what do you mean by "elaborate treble dominated style"? Is
it
> this: a
> predominantly melodic line interspersed with occasional
chords?
> Which
> composers are you thinking of?'
> I don't know what others are thinking of, but I mentioned that
the
> similarity between much (especially Italian) guitar writing
and that
> for unaccompanied violin by such as Schmelzer, Biber, Matteis
had
> struck me some years ago. Almost all guitar composer exhibit
this in
> pieces from time to time but some particular ones which I
recall
> being
> examplars of the fashion were: Pellegrini(1650),
Carbonchi(1640),
> Pesori(1648), Coriandoli(1670), Valdambrini (1646/7),
Bottazzari
> (1663), Granata (various)....... A good example of the
practice in
> operation and a interesting perspective on this style is also
shed
> by
> those few pieces which actually do have an independent bass
line as
> well as guitar tablature (eg Granata Op 5 of 1674 for violin,
bass
> violin and guitar) - the guitar 'bass' is often skeletal at
best and
> often non-existant whereas the guitar does double most of the
> independent upper melodic line.
> Well, looking at Granata's Novi Capricci Armonic Musicali:
the
> first
> few pieces have a guitar part on the left hand side (in tab)
and a
> score for violin and a ('viola'=bass?) part on the right. If
it's
> assumed that the guitar is playing along with the bass line
(and
> violin), nevertheless the guitar parts stand as pieces in
their own
> right with basic, sketchy, two-part writing (plus chords here
and
> there). There are passages which are just the melodic line
but
> still
> most of the writing is rudimentary two-part....but like much
writing
> for guitar before or since.
> Stuart
> Of course if anyone really wanted to push the matter and
insist that
> a
> proper through bass was always present, I suppose it might be
> possible
> to construct a bass line (of sorts) from the lowest notes
(depending
> on
> stringing!) of the strummed chords......
> Martyn
> --- On Mon, 7/2/11, Stuart Walsh
[1]<[1][6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> From: Stuart Walsh [2]<[2][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar -
again
> To: "Monica Hall" [3]<[3][8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" [4]<[4][9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Monday, 7 February, 2011, 22:22
> On 07/02/2011 17:21, Monica Hall wrote:
> > This was my summary. It caused outrage in some quarters
but I
> still
> stand by most of it.
> >
> > 1. Both the conventional and re-entrant tunings were
> considered
> appropriate for strummed music and choice of one or the other
was a
> matter of practical convenience.
> > 2. The development of an elaborate treble dominated
style
> after
> 1640 led to a preference for re-entrant stringing.
> Monica, what do you mean by "elaborate treble dominated
style"? Is
> it
> this: a predominantly melodic line interspersed with
occasional
> chords?
> Which composers are you thinking of?
> The small amount of fancier music for the English
guitar/guittar in
> the
> 18th century actually, literally looks like this - melodic
lines -
> single melodic lines and then occasional chords. But
five-course
> guitar
> music doesn't look like this at all. It looks like there's
some kind
> of
> bass and treble - it looks like, at least, two part music.
> If the guitar is playing in this "elaborate treble dominated
style"
> (as
> I am interpreting you as claiming) it would have to be in a
> re-entrant
> stringing, wouldn't it? It couldn't lead to a preference for
it?
> > 3. Perhaps as early as the 1650s Corbetta used bourdon
on the
> fourth course.
> > 4. This became the preferred method of stringing in
France,
> England and the Low Countries and possibly also in Italy and
Spain
> during the last quarter of the seventeenth and first quarter
of the
> eighteenth centuries.
> > 5. Developments in the way strings were made lead to
regular
> use
> of octaves on both fourth and fifth courses and eventually to
a
> 6-course instrument.
> But you say in 1. (above) - the 'conventional' tuning? So, by
that,
> you
> don't mean octaves on fourth and fifth? You mean AA and DD?
> Stuart
> > 6. Different methods of stringing were probably used
for solo
> music and realizing a bass line.
> > 7. The evidence for octave stringing on the third
course is
> ambiguous. Such a method of stringing would only be suitable
for
> strummed music.
> >
> > Do I hear howls of rage in the distance?
> >
> > Monica
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
[5][5][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> --
> References
> 1. mailto:[6][11]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 2. mailto:[7][12]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 3. mailto:[8][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 4. mailto:[9][14]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 5.
[10][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 2.
[17]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 3.
[18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 4.
[19]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 5. [20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 6.
[21]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 7.
[22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 8.
[23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 9.
[24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 10. [25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
21. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
