From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
To: "WALSH STUART" <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Wednesday, 7 November, 2012, 8:51
Dear Stuart,
I'm not suggesting that these Losy guitar pieces were originally
composed for mandora rather than guitar (or for Dm lute): merely
suggesting it as a practical possibility - at least for some pieces.
Regarding strummed chords and the like: I would expect any competant
arranger to transcribe a piece in a way which is idiomatically suited
to the particular instrument. See, for example, the pieces extant for
lute and theorbo with De Visee named as composer (whether he himself
actually played the lute) - the versions are arranged idiomatically for
both instruments.
Re the sarabande: I'm not quite sure the point you're making - sorry
Stuart. Surely not that sarabandes weren't composed well into the 18th
century (look at JS Bach for one). The very slow mannered dance (as
found in some JSB's works) seems to have been increasingly developed
from the early 18th century onwards but I would have expected Losy to
still be writing in the earlier not so laboured style (tho' not as fast
at Matt. Locke who tells us they are the fastest of all dances......).
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 6/11/12, WALSH STUART <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: WALSH STUART <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Vihuelalist"
<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 20:18
But how do you think the Tombeau, Sarabande and Minuet would work
on a
mandora? There are a lot of strummed chords in the Sarabande. Very
untypical for a mandora?
And the stringing arrangement is probably a high fifth course and
octave on fourth - quite different from low basses of a mandora.
Isn't the Sarabande looking back to the 17th century, rather than to
galant style?
Stuart
On 6 November 2012 15:18, Martyn Hodgson
<[1][1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
Yes, I have the Supraphon edition - not at all bad considering
the
date. Alas, some of the transcriptions are incorrect: see,
for
example, No 1 Allemande. This is also the first piece in MsKk
77
but
you'll see that the flags in the first full bar are incorrectly
transcribed in the Supraphon edition: instead of three quavers
(down,
up, down) the editors have them as a quaver (d) and two
semi-quavers (u
d). The rest of the piece is similarly incorrectly transcribed.
This is the worst of all but there are a fair number of such
scattered
errors throughout the publication. The one I like the best is
No
33
'Aria' which they transcribe as being in 5/4 time and over
which
I tried many different stresses to make it work effectively
(shades of
William Shield's predeliction for 5/4) but, alas, when I saw a
copy of
the original I saw the scribe marks it simply as a 3 time and,
although
some flags are missing and barring is often nonsensical, it
plays
as a
triple time piece - what a shame - I rather liked the idea of a
5/4
guitar work in the early 18th century. The page before has a
'Menuet'
which is similarly poorly barred in the original but as a
menuet
can be
easily rebarred (interestingly the Supraphon editors exclude it
altogether, perhaps for such bamng reasons - so No 32 isn't in
the
publication...). But hats off to Supraphon for publishing such
a
work
at that date - so the 'communist' state at the time was not
all
bad......
You'll see the editors also made a list of sources and include
another
one for mandora with works by Losy: Brno, Mopravian Museum A
3329
The Losy rondeau I mentioned as being probably for mandora is
on
page
31 of the Supraphon edition. In Brno Ms D189 it has 'Rondeau /
C
Loeschi' which the editors thought, I think correctly, is
Losy.
This
particular piece does, in fact, appear as a Dm lute piece
(can't
find
it off-hand but I have it somewhere) as well as in D189 for a
6
string
instrument in a known mandora tuning. We've discussed D189
before -
it contains instructions how to tune the gallichon/mandora ( f.
3
'Calledono accord') and the guitar (f.48 ' Fundementa
Chytarra')
and,
interestingly, on f.48v has 'Accordo Chytarra et Mandora
indicating
either instrument is possible. And from f. 48v it has pieces
for
an
instrument with six courses in a known mandora tuning with the
sixth
course just a tone below the fifth - presumably a guitarist
would
simply play the open third course. On 51v is our rondeau
showing
quite
clearly 6 courses - and in this piece putting the sixth course
up
an
octave would spoil the melodic effect (see last system bars 3
through
to 6). Odd that the editors make no mention of a sixth course
being
required. The piece also fits very easily on the mandora so
perhaps, as
suggested earlier, it was conceived for the mandora by Losy
rather than
guitar or Dm lute. And so, in an indirect way, perhaps Losy was
able to
play the guitar - but in mandora form.................
I also find Deisel works better on the mandora than guitar ( to
do with
having low basses and on the outside) as also discussed before.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Tue, 6/11/12, Monica Hall <[2][2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
From: Monica Hall <[3][3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4][4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[5][5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 13:19
Well - I hadn't thought about the mandora or indeed what kind of
lute
the
music might originally have been for.
In fact there is a rather better edition of all of Losy's
"guitar"
music
originally edited by Jan Racek, revised by Jaroslav Pohanka and
published by
Supraphon in 1979 in the series "Musica Antiqua Bohemica".
It includes both the Tombeau and the Sarabande. They seem to me
to
be
very
idiomatically conceived for the guitar. The chord shapes are
typical
alfabeto.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][6][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <[2][7][7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][8][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 9:18 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
>
> When you say 'arrangements of lute music' do you include
mandora
as
a
> lute or have you just the 11 course Dm instrument in mind (as
most
> people still do)? One of Losy's guitar pieces (rondeau in
Brno
> D189) is extant in a mandora tablature (usually mistaken for
guitar
> tablature!). Maybe this tombeau was conceived for
mandora..........
>
> The Karl Scheidt publication was, I recall, aimed at
beginners,
> and contains mostly facile Losy works - some from the first
Ms
in
the
> Lobkowicz Ms volume (OLIM Prague II Ms Kk 77) in which Losy
is
> identified as the composer (' Pieces Composee/ Par le
Comte/Losy').
It
> also contains slightly more challenging works - tho' not as
much
so
as
> the second volume in the binding which looks to me to be in a
different
> hand and different (later?) style and shouldn't be linked to
Losy.
>
> M.
>
> --- On Tue, 6/11/12, Monica Hall
<[4][9][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[5][10][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
> To: "WALSH STUART" <[6][11][11]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7][12][12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 8:56
>
> I found it now. It is not actually attributed to
Losi, Losi
seems
> to be
> a bit of a mystery. These pieces are supposed to be
arrangements
of
> lute
> music but none of the pieces survive in versions for the
lute.
> Anyway - it is really nice to have a chance to hear you play
it
-
not
> easy.
> I shall have a go myself later.
> Monica
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "WALSH STUART" <[1][8][13][13]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> To: "vl" <[2][9][14][14]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 10:14 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Losy (Logi) sarabande?
> > I've also sent this to the Baroque lute list. It's an
attempt
at a
> very
> > striking sarabande, possibly by J.A. Losy, but sounding
nothing
> like
> > the more familiar guitar pieces.
> > I incautiously included the music - to show what it looks
like,
> and, of
> > course, showing errors to boot. A fine piece though.
> > [1][3][10][15][15]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
> > Stuart
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
[4][11][16][16]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
[5][12][17][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[13][18][18]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlwor
l
d.com
> 2.
[14][19][19]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
t
mouth.e
du
> 3. [15][20][20]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
> 4. [16][21][21]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
> 5.
[17][22][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1.
[23][23]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yaho
o
.co.uk
2.
[24][24]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
.
uk
3.
[25][25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmou
t
h.edu
4.
[26][26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
.
uk
5.
[27][27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
.
uk
6.
[28][28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlworld.c
o
m
7.
[29][29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmou
t
h.edu
8.
[30][30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlworld.c
o
m
9.
[31][31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmou
t
h.edu
10. [32][32]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
11. [33][33]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
12.
[34][34]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
13.
[35][35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlworld.c
o
m
14.
[36][36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmou
t
h.edu
15. [37][37]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
16. [38][38]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
17.
[39][39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:[40]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. mailto:[41]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:[42]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. mailto:[43]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
5. mailto:[44]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. mailto:[45]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
7. mailto:[46]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
8. mailto:[47]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. mailto:[48]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
10. mailto:[49]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
11. mailto:[50]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
12. mailto:[51]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. mailto:[52]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
14. mailto:[53]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. [54]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
16. [55]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
17. [56]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
18.
[57]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
19.
[58]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
20. [59]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
21. [60]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
22. [61]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
23.
[62]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
24.
[63]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
25.
[64]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
26.
[65]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
27.
[66]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
28.
[67]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
29.
[68]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
30.
[69]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
31.
[70]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
32. [71]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
33. [72]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
34. [73]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
35.
[74]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
36.
[75]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
37. [76]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
38. [77]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
39. [78]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
16. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
18. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlworl
19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dart
20. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
21. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yahoo
24. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmout
26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
28. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.co
29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmout
30. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.co
31. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmout
32. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
33. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
34. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
35. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.co
36. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmout
37. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
38. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
39. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
40. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
41. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
42. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
43. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
44. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
45. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
46. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
47. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
48. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
49. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
50. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
51. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
52. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
53. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
54. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
55. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
56. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
57. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
58. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
59. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
60. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
61. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
62. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
63. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
64. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
65. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
66. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
67. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
68. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
69. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
70. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
71. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
72. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
73. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
74. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
75. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
76. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
77. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
78. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
