Just to add to Johns excellent post below, many blind and other people as well don’t know what they should get to get the very latest and greatest so they turn to their trusted vendors/dealers who don’t know anything either so they sell a thing that is popular and beyond that, the vendors don’t know anything, that’s the feeling i get anyways. And then there are all the special questions you as a blind person have to ask, does this phone have a screen reader? Does it have menus? do the menus wrap? and so forth. /Krister
> 17 juni 2016 kl. 16:27 skrev John Panarese <jpanar...@gmail.com>: > > We are straying far off course here, but you are, again, over simplifying > things. It isn’t easy for the average consumer to do the required research to > find out just what handsets work best for accessibility in Android. It’s just > not an easy task. For you or me, it might be, but most blind people can’t or > won’t do it for several reasons. So, you buy an Apple product, you have > accessibility. That’s a very big comfort. It makes a big difference for the > average consumer. Also don’t underestimate how the fragmentation of Android > will continue to effect accessibility for Android either because it will have > a big impact on serious advances and making it truly a viable option for us. > > Secondly, regardless of what the fault is, yes, 60 percent of Android > devices do have some sort of malware on it. This ranges from minor pieces to > more sinister pieces, and the fact is, there are a lot of ways that anyone > looking to take advantage of it can do it in the Android environment. Such > examples can be found in many places on Youtube and the Internet to prove > that point. It’s why I am very careful in what I load onto my device, and, > yes, deny it or not, it has to do with the fact that it’s open source, or, at > least, that does make it easier. Linux is an entirely different story and > something far beyond this discussion. > > As for marketing, it has a lot more to do than price points. Again, this > is way off topic, but I’ll just mention two very large factors that are part > of the proverbial tip of the iceberg when it comes to the data you state, > which, by the way, is off a bit in reality. I like to read a lot about trends > in all kinds of data, which includes markets, and I have a childhood friend > who makes a living with it, so he has been a very good and reliable source > for me over the years. > > Apple sales are, in fact, sales. When they post the numbers of product > sales, it’s product that has been purchased by the end user. They obviously > have a much easier time of this because of the fact they control the outlets, > despite some stores, like Best Buy, selling Apple products. > > With many Android handset and tablet makers, as well as Microsoft, the > sales numbers only count product shipped to stores. In other words, you can > ship 1 million pieces to your retailers, but if only fifteen percent of those > devices are actually purchased by consumers, you still count it as 1 million > sales in the books. This is extremely misleading and does not at all tell the > real story. A great example of this is the old Microsoft Zune music player > and how they were reporting millions of sales of the device when, in > actuality, they sold about a half a million of them when the final numbers > were counted. > > On top of that, you need only listen to the ads on TV and radio for > Android phones and tablets. How many offers do you hear in which you buy one > Android device and get the second one for free? Guess what? That free device > given to the customer is counted as a sale by the majority of hardware > makers. So, again, you have a serious blur in the actual data. This is one of > the major reasons why Apple’s profit margins are so much higher than other > companies. Those free devices being given away take a major chunk out of the > money you make on top of the fact that many hardware makers are already > selling their devices with slim margins to start. > > Overall, though, to keep this post on track, at the moment, Apple simply > has a far better handle on accessibility than the competition. Personally, > though, I happen to love competition, and I wish that Android accessibility > had a far better opportunity to improve, as they are just dealing with far > too many factors to make this a realistic possibility as it stands now. In > other words, you have to buy the latest and greatest Android device to be > able to get accessibility that is still a few year’s behind Apple to start, > and in six months, you won’t be able to upgrade that device anyway. > > In my opinion, I think competition helps the blind because it forces > there to be advances and improvements for us. You want Apple to be pushed and > you want every other company to have motivation to keep making their software > and hardware accessible. I don’t see the commitment in many other companies > to do this in the short term as Apple does. Talk to me in a few years and > we’ll see where we stand. I’ve been in this industry since 1992, and a lot of > things have changed since I was a reseller of assistive technology alone. I > never thought back then at all that I’d ever see Apple where it is now in the > area of accessibility. > > > > > Take Care > > John D. Panarese > Director > Mac for the Blind > Tel, (631) 724-4479 > Email, j...@macfortheblind.com <mailto:j...@macfortheblind.com> > Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com <http://www.macfortheblind.com/> > > APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer > > AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE > > MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT > > > >> On Jun 17, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com >> <mailto:chalt...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Well, I don't regularly follow market share numbers, but from what I've read >> lately, all of the top manufacturers, including Samsung and Apple, are >> losing out to up and coming Chinese hand set makers. Market share numbers >> are also complex and require some deeper investigation. Sieghard did a good >> job of pointing this out when talking about how many price points you have >> with Android that you don't have with Apple. >> >> I agree fragmentation in the Android ecosystem is an issue, but I don't see >> how this applies to this discussion. Whether there's fragmentation or not >> doesn't change the market share numbers. >> >> The fact that 60% of Android handsets has malware on it is a misleading >> statistic. Also, this is not because Android contains some open source >> software. My Linux system is much more secure than a Windows PC or even a >> Mac. >> >> It is true that some handsets aren't as accessible as others due to >> modifications made by the handset maker, but it's easy to avoid this with a >> little research, all handsets have gotten more accessible over time and >> Jonathan's article does a good job of discussing this. >> >> Bloatware is a misleading term. The Samsung phones have a lot of >> accessibility improvements in them that haven't made it to Android or Talk >> Back yet, so it isn't true that Google devices are always the most >> accessible. In fact, Samsung has added some features to their version of >> Talk Back to make it easier for iPhone users to make the transition to >> Android. >> >> I have a Nexus 7, and I can't recall a single application that came on the >> phone that was not accessible. This is also true for other handset makers, >> such as Samsung. I have switched to a few new default applications, such as >> a launcher, email program and web browser, but this was due to choice and >> not because the original applications were not accessible. I didn't have any >> trouble picking up and using my Nexus 7, and I am just a casual user. I >> don't think I've had to be a geek to use Android. >> >> Remember, this discussion started when someone said Apple had no real >> competition. I and others pointed out that this isn't true. You may not like >> Android, and you may not think that the market share numbers for Android, >> demonstrate real competition to Apple, but I would disagree with this, and >> I'm pretty sure Apple is paying attention to what's going on with Google, >> Android, Samsung and other handset manufacturers and consider this real >> competition. >> >> I don't think I did anything to turn this into an Android versus iPhone >> debate, and I'm sorry if I did. I do think it's important that information >> be accurate and that blind users know what their options are. I'm not >> rooting for Apple or Android or anything other than more accessible options >> for the blind. I cheer for increased accessibility in Android just as much >> as I do for improvements in Apple. I think it's unfortunate whenever an >> accessible product disappears from the market, even if it was a product I >> chose not to use. >> >> On 16/06/16 22:07, John Panarese wrote: >>> Actually, if you have been keeping up with the markets, Samsung has >>> been losing a lot of market share to both Apple, but from other Android >>> handset makers. In fact, in their home country, they are no longer the >>> largest handset company any longer. This doesn’t take into consideration >>> the fact that Android overall continues to fracture in its use across >>> devices, as the fact that less than 2 percent of all Android users are >>> even running the latest software and over seventy percent of Android >>> users don’t even know what is the latest software or if their device can >>> even run it. In point of fact, handset makers really don’t want their >>> user base to be able to upgrade their devices for lengthy periods of >>> time which is why Android users often find their devices outdated within >>> three months of [purchase it as just happened to my cousin. >>> >>> Add to that the additional reality that sixty percent of Android >>> users have some form of malware on their phones or tablets is somewhat >>> disturbing to me. It’s the risks you take with open source software, >>> like it or not. It’s why I use Android for only curiosity and my geeky >>> interest than utilize it for any important work. >>> >>> Also, from personal experience, to say Android is accessible out of >>> the box is misleading. You have to take into consideration as to what >>> device you are using. Out of the box, this can make a major difference >>> in your Android experience, and in some cases, what other software you >>> have to download. Accessibility works far better on Google devices >>> because there isn’t the other bloatware that other handset manufacturers >>> include. It’s why I went with a Google device and not another maker’s >>> product. Also, web accessibility in Android is very sporadic. You do, in >>> fact, have to be much more of a geek or a tinkerer to really use both >>> Android and accessibility effectively. I have two particular friends who >>> have really taught me a lot about Android over the last year. >>> >>> >>> Take Care >>> >>> John D. Panarese >>> Director >>> Mac for the Blind >>> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >>> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com <mailto:j...@macfortheblind.com> >>> <mailto:j...@macfortheblind.com <mailto:j...@macfortheblind.com>> >>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com <http://www.macfortheblind.com/> >>> >>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer >>> >>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >>> >>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 16, 2016, at 8:40 PM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:chalt...@gmail.com> >>>> <mailto:chalt...@gmail.com <mailto:chalt...@gmail.com>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well, I don't think analogies to Toyota and Mercedes are relevant. >>>> Also, comparing Apple to Google doesn't tell the whole story, since >>>> Apple is a hardware manufacturer and Google is an OS provider. I'm >>>> also not sure where statements like Apple wins hands down over Samsung >>>> come from. >>>> >>>> Articles like: >>>> * http://bgr.com/2016/05/23/smartphone-market-share-q1-2016/ >>>> <http://bgr.com/2016/05/23/smartphone-market-share-q1-2016/> >>>> * http://www.macrumors.com/2016/04/27/iphone-15-percent-market-share/ >>>> <http://www.macrumors.com/2016/04/27/iphone-15-percent-market-share/> >>>> Talk about how Apple only has 15% of the smart phone market share >>>> worldwide, trailing Samsung. >>>> >>>> If you just look at the US then articles like: >>>> * >>>> https://www.comscore.com/Insights/Rankings/comScore-Reports-January-2016-US-Smartphone-Subscriber-Market-Share >>>> >>>> <https://www.comscore.com/Insights/Rankings/comScore-Reports-January-2016-US-Smartphone-Subscriber-Market-Share> >>>> Shows that Apple has just over 40% of the market, while Samsung has >>>> just under 30%. The original statement was that Apple had no real >>>> competition. I'd say 43% to 28% is real competition. >>>> >>>> On 16/06/16 13:24, Evan Reese wrote: >>>>> True enough, but all those people who can't afford an iPhone are people >>>>> who aren't using Apple's hardware and not in Apple's ecosystem. That's a >>>>> heck of a lot of people. And Apple's hardware revenue is no longer >>>>> growing. The market for high end smart phones is saturated in the >>>>> developed world. If they want to keep growing, they are going to either >>>>> have to make more affordable models, or find some other way to increase >>>>> their revenue. >>>>> I read recently that Apple is trying very hard, and so far, failing to >>>>> increase their currently tiny market share in India; at least in part by >>>>> selling refurbished iPhones to make them more affordable. They know they >>>>> can't be complacent just because they win hands down against other high >>>>> end makers such as Samsung. >>>>> Since you mention cars, many of them make various models for various >>>>> income levels. Apple does some of that, but I can't believe they don't >>>>> want to put their devices in the hands of three quarters of the world's >>>>> population who currently can't afford one. If they do want to get those >>>>> customers, they will have to make lower end models. Of course, there's >>>>> the risk then of losing their high end brand mystique. It's got to be a >>>>> tough decision. >>>>> Evan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Sieghard Weitzel >>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 1:31 PM >>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>> Subject: RE: WWDC event, was it yesterday? >>>>> >>>>> That's a bit like saying Toyota has much more market share than >>>>> Mercedes. Android may have more market share world wide because there >>>>> are a lot of low-end Android phones especially in countries like China, >>>>> India, Indonesia and other Asian, south American and African countries >>>>> where most people can't afford an iPhone or one of the high-end Android >>>>> phones like a Samsung Galaxy. The fact is that three quarters of the >>>>> world's population is in these countries and part of a socio-economic >>>>> group which could never afford a phone which costs more than $50 or $100 >>>>> at the most. >>>>> However, if you look at how much money Apple makes from iPhones/iOS >>>>> compared to how much money Google makes from Android it's a very >>>>> different story. Google makes its money from advertising and Apple makes >>>>> it from their hardware and services like Apple Music and the iTunes >>>>> Store. Apple is a single manufacturer and they have a handful of phone >>>>> models, Google licenses Android to dozens of manufacturers and there are >>>>> hundreds of models of Android phones. Compare Apple with Samsung and >>>>> their high-end phones which are really the competition for the iPhone >>>>> and Apple wins hands down. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Sieghard >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>> [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On >>>>> Behalf Of Evan Reese >>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:58 AM >>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: WWDC event, was it yesterday? >>>>> >>>>> Last I heard, which was not very long ago, according to a recent issue >>>>> of the Economist, Android has over 80 percent of the smart phone market. >>>>> So I would say that Apple is getting serious competition already. >>>>> Evan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Christopher Chaltain >>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 8:07 AM >>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: WWDC event, was it yesterday? >>>>> >>>>> I would claim that Apple is getting real competition from other smart >>>>> phone makers. I haven't checked the numbers lately, but Android in >>>>> general and Samsung in particular outsell IOS and i Phones. Even if >>>>> Apple has let over Samsung or is doing better in particular markets, I >>>>> think Apple would be crazy not to consider this serious competition. >>>>> >>>>> Note, I'm not saying Android or Samsung is better than IOS or Apple, but >>>>> I just don't think it's true that they aren't real competition for the >>>>> iPhone. >>>>> >>>>> On 16/06/16 01:42, Gary Petraccaro wrote: >>>>>> That will change when Apple starts getting real competition from other >>>>>> smartphone makers, or the blind start calling/writing the access >>>>>> people and requesting features such as what you want. If that doesn't >>>>>> do it, then Apple just has certain established attitudes toward their >>>>>> product and feels no reason to change them. One of those, the failure >>>>>> of Siri to open shazam or Google seems to me to be based on Apple's >>>>>> making a competitive product and not wanting it's operating system to >>>>>> give a leg up to a product not Apple's own. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> *From:* Sieghard Weitzel <mailto:siegh...@live.ca> >>>>>> *To:* viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 15, 2016 1:19 PM >>>>>> *Subject:* RE: WWDC event, was it yesterday? >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jonathan, >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, isn’t that nice of Apple. They make such a big deal of how >>>>>> they are opening up the API’s for all of these iOS features to >>>>>> developers but they conveniently forget to mention that really they >>>>>> don’t. As much as I like my iphone and what Apple is doing in many >>>>>> areas, it is very annoying that they are so backwards in other ways. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Sieghard >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:*viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] >>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Jonathan Mosen >>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 14, 2016 11:34 PM >>>>>> *To:* viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: WWDC event, was it yesterday? >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Sieghard, sad to say, Siri won't be opening your Audible book any >>>>>> time soon. For iOS 10.0, the Siri API will only work with six kinds >>>>>> of application: ride booking, messaging , Photo Search, payments, >>>>>> Calling, and Workouts. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, Siri won't be able to open a book in Voice Dream, Bard, or any >>>>>> other third-party book app. It won't be able to play music for you >>>>>> on Spotify or Pandora. It won't be able to play the most recent >>>>>> episode of a podcast using third-party podcast apps. I have no idea >>>>>> why Apple is so tone deaf to how far it is lagging behind in this >>>>>> space, but what they're coming out with is only going to improve the >>>>>> situation slightly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jonathan Mosen >>>>>> >>>>>> Mosen Consulting >>>>>> >>>>>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training >>>>>> >>>>>> http://Mosen.org <http://mosen.org> <http://mosen.org> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 15/06/2016, at 6:59 AM, Sieghard Weitzel <siegh...@live.ca >>>>>> <mailto:siegh...@live.ca> >>>>>> <mailto:siegh...@live.ca>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Devin, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, some of it sounds very nice, but as others have pointed >>>>>> out, there isn't much that is really groundbreaking. >>>>>> Collaboration in documents is something Microsoft has been >>>>>> offering for years and it is high time Apple opened up their >>>>>> API's to developers especially the one for SIRI. They pointed >>>>>> out that SIRI has been around for 5 years now and if you really >>>>>> think about it SIRI now is not a lot better than it was 5 years >>>>>> ago. Yes, it's a bit faster with dictation and can pull >>>>>> information from a few more sources, but why is it still not >>>>>> possible to say "Call Kevin from Bigrock Sports" just to give an >>>>>> example of one of my contacts where I have at least 3 or 4 >>>>>> Kevins in my contacts who all work for different companies. I >>>>>> can't even create a contact where I just enter a company name in >>>>>> the company name field and a single phone number and say, for >>>>>> example, "Call Bigrock Sports". I have to also put the company >>>>>> name in the last name field to do this. I should be able to say >>>>>> "Show me all my contacts who work at Bigrock Sports" or I should >>>>>> be able to tell SIRI to "Turn Voiceover Hints On or Off", but >>>>>> all of these things SIRI can't do. Another example: I can tell >>>>>> SIRI to "Remind me about my dentist appointment on Friday at 3 >>>>>> PM", but if I say "Remind me about my 3 PM dentist appointment >>>>>> on Friday at 2 PM" it will say it will remind me and when I >>>>>> check what SIRI created I see it created the reminder for 3 PM >>>>>> whereas I want to be reminded at 2 PM that my appointment is at >>>>>> 3 PM. There is a complicated way to say it so it does what I >>>>>> want, but I should be able to say it anyway I like or even in >>>>>> two parts like "Remind me about my dentist appointment at 3 PM >>>>>> on Friday" and when SIRI says it will I should be able to bring >>>>>> it up again and say "Start reminding me once an hour starting at >>>>>> 11 AM and it should understand that I want a reminder at 11 AM, >>>>>> Noon, 1 PM and 2 PM and maybe by its own intelligence SIRI >>>>>> should remind me again 15 minutes before if it detects my iPhone >>>>>> is not moving. This is true artificial intelligence, it already >>>>>> exists, the iPhone has the processing power to do it and so do >>>>>> Apple's servers. >>>>>> I can't say how much I look forward to being finally able to say >>>>>> "Play the Audible book I am currently listening to" or, if I >>>>>> have not started one but have a bunch downloaded I hope I can >>>>>> say "Play Night Ranger in audible" (just one example of a book >>>>>> by Alex Berentson I just finished). >>>>>> Another basic example of something super simple SIRI can't do. >>>>>> Try and ask SIRI to "Start the Stop Watch". SIRI will tell you >>>>>> "Sorry, I can't help you with the stop watch". Huh, really, it >>>>>> can set a timer, an alarm, it can create calendar events and >>>>>> reminders but it can't start the stop watch? Why? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Sieghard >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Devin Prater >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 8:50 AM >>>>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> Subject: Re: WWDC event, was it yesterday? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sure, but little things add up to big changes. Siri gets >>>>>> integrated into predictive text, so she can suggest better >>>>>> options there, like I'm at (suggests input of location into the >>>>>> text)" and stuff like that. Siri is open to developers, so apps >>>>>> can allow Siri to use their functionality from anywhere. Apps >>>>>> can do things within iMessage, like allowing sending of money >>>>>> right from messages. Mac gets Siri, tabs in every multi-window >>>>>> app. People can collaborate with notes. Unlock Mac with Apple >>>>>> watch. Just amazing stuff! >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 14, 2016, at 10:43 AM, Kelly Pierce >>>>>> <kellyt...@gmail.com <mailto:kellyt...@gmail.com> >>>>>> <mailto:kellyt...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> If you can't stream it, download my MP3 of the event and >>>>>> play it on a >>>>>> stand alone device. Apple announced incremental >>>>>> improvements, not >>>>>> breakthrough technology. Even Facebook with its calling >>>>>> feature in >>>>>> the messages app, a Facetime mimmick, offered something new. >>>>>> Some of >>>>>> Apple's innovations will need to be experieinced to be >>>>>> believed. The >>>>>> photos app will now be able to recognize peple and places. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kelly >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 6/14/16, 'Sandratomkins' via VIPhone >>>>>> <viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>> wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I was under the impression that the Apple event was >>>>>> yesterday. I >>>>>> cannot stream it, no bandwidth! But, if it was >>>>>> yesterday, how come >>>>>> the silence? Was it so unremarkable? Or do I have the >>>>>> wrong week? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, Sandy. >>>>>> >>>>>> sent from the dark side of the moon >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The following information is important for all members >>>>>> of the V >>>>>> iPhone list. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running >>>>>> of this list, >>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, >>>>>> please contact >>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on >>>>>> the list itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your >>>>>> owner is Cara >>>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>> the Google >>>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>> from it, >>>>>> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>> viphone@googlegroups.com <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The following information is important for all members of >>>>>> the V iPhone list. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of >>>>>> this list, or if you feel that a member's post is >>>>>> inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators >>>>>> directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner >>>>>> is Cara >>>>>> Quinn - 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you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>> it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the V >>>>>> iPhone list. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, >>>>>> please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than >>>>>> posting on the list itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is >>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>> Google Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>> it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the V >>>>>> iPhone list. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please >>>>>> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the >>>>>> list itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara >>>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the V >>>>>> iPhone list. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this >>>>>> list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please >>>>>> contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the >>>>>> list itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara >>>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone >>>>>> list. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>> itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara >>>>>> Quinn >>>>>> - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Christopher (CJ) >>>>> chaltain at Gmail >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone >>>>> list. >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>> >>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn >>>>> - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>> >>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone >>>>> list. >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>> >>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn >>>>> - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>> >>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Christopher (CJ) >>>> chaltain at Gmail >>>> >>>> -- >>>> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone >>>> list. >>>> >>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>> >>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara >>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>> >>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. >>> >>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>> >>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn >>> - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>> >>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> Christopher (CJ) >> chaltain at Gmail >> >> -- >> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. >> >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if >> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or >> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >> >> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn - >> you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >> >> The archives for this list can be searched at: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/> >> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "VIPhone" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn - > you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ > <http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/> > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com > <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone > <https://groups.google.com/group/viphone>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
