What a dodgy mess this is! 8^)
On Oct 29, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Jones Beene wrote:
Stephen,
How can you possibly think a circuit with a battery in it provides
a more clear-cut case of OU than a circuit which lights LEDs with
no input power at all?
Once again - let me repeat that no one has ever claimed that there
is NO power input.
How would you categorize your statement: "there is NO, ZERO, NADA,
signal... merely ground, or DrS's touch"? (A copy of that message is
appended below.)
No one has ever claimed that there is apples-to-apples OU.
Once again the questions is handily sidestepped. The question
implied is *not* is there any source of power from anywhere in the
universe. The question for which there has not been a direct answer
from Ron is whether there is any power deliberately supplied to the
circuit in video #7.
Following is a brief summary, in latest order first, of various forms
in which the question has been asked or implied.
On Oct 29, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
It's just that -- "... have already eliminated obvious inputs" --
which is under discussion. In fact, Ron has never actually
asserted that all obvious inputs have been eliminated.
As I said, the circuit being discussed extensively here was the one
which apparently had just a ground wire attached and no inputs. It
is by far the most anomalous item mentioned in the thread --
everything else discussed in this thread is just arguing over
whether the input and output balance; OTOH if there's no input at
all then it's a clear cut case of something for nothing. Don't you
find that more interesting than the (possible) ability to pull more
out of an alkaline cell than the manufacture's specs claim?
But according to the description given on the web page, the no-
input circuit /does/ have an input: the signal generator is
apparently intentionally capacitively coupled to the circuit.
On Oct 29, 2007, at 9:05 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
Jones Beene wrote:
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
The circuit under discussion was the one with a single ground
wire attached and no input. It is based on the circuit shown in
video #7. It is described farther down on that page.
The one with a battery is yet something else again.
The circuit is FAR from "something else again" and in fact was
added later for the (apparent) sole purpose of countering
skeptics' objection of capacitive coupling.
It seems to me that the commentators here have been too quick to
assume that the effect is conservative. Isn't the purpose of
this forum to seek out anomalies, and this process may involve
some trust in experimenters with very extensive experience in
these things to have already eliminated obvious inputs.
It's just that -- "... have already eliminated obvious inputs" --
which is under discussion. In fact, Ron has never actually
asserted that all obvious inputs have been eliminated.
Or else you haven't been listening.
So if he said it, and you _were_ listening, please post the quote.
If there was no power input to the 1-wire circuit, just what
"capacitive coupling" do you think the "skeptics" were objecting to?
On Oct 28, 2007, at 2:12 AM, Michel Jullian wrote:
So there still is a signal generator coupled to the device, why
couldn't it be the power source
then?
Michel
On Oct 27, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Horace Heffner wrote:
Has anyone noticed that at some point in the progress that Ron
started using an AC coupling through the bottom of the breadboard
backing plate? For example see Fig. 22 of the following:
http://www.drstiffler.com/ce4.asp
On Oct 22, 2007, at 10:54 PM, Horace Heffner wrote:
I would still like to hear Ron's direct response to the question as
to whether he is supplying any input energy to the device in video #7.
Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
On Oct 22, 2007, at 1:21 AM, William Beaty wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
William Beaty wrote:
I totally missed any announcement that self-acting or "closed-loop"
operation was achieved.
WHOA slow down, that's not what was said.
That's exactly what was said. Or at least strongly implied... and
then
if we made the wrong conclusions, he didn't correct us.
On Oct 22, 2007, at 9:07 AM, Jones Beene wrote:
--- Horace
As I stated, and the video demonstrates, the
signal
can be disconnected now after startup, but not both
the ground and the signal.
Nonsense!
Only with the connotation that this experiment defies
traditional understanding...then yes, it is "nonsense"
to the mainstream.
On Oct 21, 2007, at 3:27 PM, Horace Heffner wrote:
On Oct 20, 2007, at 10:42 AM, William Beaty wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007, Jones Beene wrote:
I find Bill's T-coil comparison enlightening ;-) but lacking (in the
sense of apples-to-oranges) wrt to the latest experiment -- where
there
is NO, ZERO, NADA, signal... merely ground, or DrS's touch.
Ah, that's different!
:)
and ... that is probably not true that there is no signal applied.
If you will notice there is no mention of closing the loop or self
running in the video. In fact, it appears what has likely happened
is the pan potential has been made to float, providing a capacitive
or conductive linkage to the breadboard ground, the closed path to
the "ground" supplied by the clip or hand. The power is supplied
through the pan. Since the supplied power is AC, this is no
different from attaching the clip to the power supply and using the
capacitive link between the pan and ground as ground, even if the
pan is not grounded by wire, but rather by capacitive linkage to
ground. You can see about an inch of what appears to be a power
supply lead at the bottom right of the screen. It goes under the pan.
*Complete* documentation including a full circuit diagram and parts
info should be supplied.
Following is the dialog from the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdJm9QCVJHY
Quoted material below is from narrator on the video, assumed to be
Ron Stiffler.
"Sometimes a good ground really makes all the difference in the
world. There's my big fat ground lead hooked to that one little
wire on that coil. Eight beautiful white LEDs."
(Hand grabs insulated alligator clip and removes it, showing LED go
out.)
"Let's see if I'm a good ground too."
(Hand comes back into picture without clip, touches lead, the LED
glows dimly.)
"I'll be dared. Not too bad, right?"
(Repeats touch, no touch. Note little black wire at bottom right
of screen, going under pan, moving side to side a bit.)
"Fire up eight LEDs."
(Repeats touch, no touch.)
"That takes a lot of power doesn't it?"
(Lifts up breadboard with left hand to show no battery. Note what
appears to be a small black wire, going under the right half front
of the aluminum pan, shaking back and forth just prior to and after
the lifting of the board. )
"I still don't have that pink bunny under here either."
(Rotates breadboard. Places board back on pan. Wire at bottom
right of screen moves side to side some more in the process. Hooks
alligator clip back to coil lead.)
"Well, we'll put the ground back on it and be satisfied with it.
Lookn' better all the time. Maybe I'll light my house next week."
Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
