I realize that there is work done on the heavy piston as it is lifted from the base. This indeed does represent energy being taken from the gas and delivered to the piston as you suggest. But, if the system then generates a negative pressure as is mentioned by John, it will essentially suck the piston back to the starting position. If we are to believe the inventors, very little heat is deposited in the cylinder as a result of this cycle.
Had there been a report of gas heating, then you are correct, but there is none according to these guys. This is further supported by the fact that the piston does not remain in a high position after the energy pulse has completed. I contend that the gas would have remained in some expanded condition had the energy been given to it from that stored in the piston due to gravity. You could achieve a similar effect if you had a spring under the piston that is compressed and then a latch allows it to be released. Initially the piston accelerates upwards to a maximum height and speed. It could loose contact with the spring entirely at some point as it proceeds upwards. The spring at that point would be totally out of compression. Now, when the piston returns due to gravitational force, it again contacts the spring and compresses it. And, at this point the piston will continue to compress the spring until it reaches the original compression minus losses due to friction. So, even though we would measure potentially a great deal of energy and power in the piston due to the energy stored within the spring, the net work done is zero for a complete cycle. Therefore, if no heat is detected within the gas at the conclusion of the cycle, then there is no work done on the piston by that gas. For this reason it is not possible to measure the output of a Popp type system just by looking at the effect a pulse has on the piston movement unless the final energy is actually measured within the gas. Abd, you would be correct if the total amount of energy given to the piston by the gas were then measured as heat within that same gas after the stroke, otherwise as you say there is little to no heating in that gas so there is no net energy released. I suspect that what I have just stated is the general case that will always be true for a closed gas operated system. If at the end of the power pulse the gas is not at an elevated temperature, then there can be no net power delivered by the engine. I can think of one exception to this rule. If by some process the gas is able to convert that energy into some other form such as electrical energy, then its temperature might not have to rise to the extent that is normally required. I see no such mechanism at work within the Popp device. This is certainly the situation with Russ' experiments unless the capacitor bank is being mostly recharged by the return power pulse. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <a...@lomaxdesign.com> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> Sent: Sun, Dec 30, 2012 8:46 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Papp and Water At 06:02 PM 12/30/2012, David Roberson wrote: >I just came to the realization that most of the demonstrations that >Russ has performed do not show much real work output. The piston is >driven upward by the spark activated mixture, but then returns to >the starting point. Any work done on the mass of the piston is >returned back to the gas when it retracts for a net of zero. On >occasions I have seen him toss items into the air which intercept >his fan or ceiling, but the mass is small and little damage appears >to be caused by the projectile. > >It is going to be difficult to get accurate measurements for a valid >determination of energy released unless that energy remains stored >somewhere and compared to the electrical input. David, I think you have missed the point. Yes, gravity will continue to act on the driven piston, so it will return to the start. However, there would not be a "return to zero," as such. Work would be done on the weight. What happens to the energy released? It would end up where it almost always ends up, as heat. But that is not the issue. When the piston is lifted, there is a force operating over a distance, against the inertia of the piston and against gravity. Force times distance is work, or energy. The energy that has been dumped into the piston should be measureable. The energy expressed as work, through the lifting of the piston, would be equal to that, if there is no XP, or less than that, because of friction. Friction will cause diversion of the energy into heat. The gas in the cylinder expanded. What happens to the expanded gas? If the piston is sealed, it stays expanded, does it? What happens to the gas? The gas must collapse if this cycle can be repeated with a sealed cylinder. The motion of that cylinder, from a single pop, could be quite interesting! The force exerted on the weight, over a time which can be found by observation of the piston lift, can be used to predict how an engine would behave, to a degree, though more is involved, i.e., how the gas then collapses. I suspect that the spark creates a transient high pressure, but only slightly elevates the temperature, and whatever temperature increase exists is rapidly dissipated. The motion of the piston, observed, could show the pressure behavior.
