At 04:13 AM 1/2/2013, Jojo Jaro wrote:
I've already said, you can not enroll into this muslim school that
Obama enrolled in if you were not registered as a muslim. And any
adoption of a child by an Indonesian muslim man automatically makes
the child a muslim. That was the law. Research it my friend.
Jojo has obviously not researched this, or he's lying. When the story
came out, it was in a Moonie publication that attributed the claim to
the Clinton campaign in 2008. Clinton denied it. So CNN and another
major media source sent reporters to the school itself. It's a public
school with students from every major religion present in Jakarta.
There was a different school involved, a Catholic school, where Obama
seems to have been registered as a Muslim.
Jojo was actually asked for a source here, but he did not provide it,
he simply repeated his claim, that's his normal practice.
I recall seeing a story that Obama was indeed registered as a muslim
student. Things like this happen. His mother's husband, the head of
household, was Muslim, and he has a Muslim name, so the school may
have merely assumed he was Muslim. It actually means very little
about his actual religion, and he was a young child at the time.
The adoption would make the child eligible to be treated as a muslim,
I think that Jojo might be correct about that. So what?
Jojo's claims about U.S. citizenship are idiosyncratic, common among
birthers, and legally invalid. If someone is a U.S. citizen by right
of birth, they are not a naturalized citizen. There is no case law on
renounced citizenship on this, to my knowledge, but an "automatic
renouncement" would clearly not apply. One can be a dual citizen, it
does not negate "natural born citizen."
These are arguments that have been *demolished* elsewhere, being
brought here. For coverage of birther issues, in general, I now refer to
http://www.thefogbow.com/
On the adoption issue, see
http://www.thefogbow.com/birther-claims-debunked1/three-theories/adopted-in-indonesia/
On the dual citizen issue, see
http://www.thefogbow.com/birther-claims-debunked1/three-theories/two-citizen-parents/
Suppose, however, the one non-Catholic school at the time was only
open to muslim students. Suppose that it was only opened to others
later. This would have just about zero implication as to Obama's
present religious affiliation. I forget how old he was, but it was
certainly before the age at which people make informed decisions
about religion. There is no sign that the school was a madrassa, a
"religious school." That was something simply alleged without
evidence in the original story, apparently an assumption that a
"muslim" school, in a majority muslim nation, would be religious.
On the adoption claim, from Fogbow:
Claim: There's evidence Obama was adopted in Indonesia.
The only "evidence" is a
<http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/100312/GAL-10Mar12-4044/media/PHO-10Mar12-211335.jpg>handwritten
school
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/24/AR2007012400371_pf.html>registration
page from the Santo Fransiskus Assisi (Saint Francis of Assisi)
Catholic School in Jakarta, Indonesia, that refers to Obama as
"Barack Soetoro." However, according to
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQPXVJuT2vY&feature=player_embedded>school
officials at the Assisi School, it was customary for students to be
enrolled with their father's last name and religion.
(That would mean that a male head of household was considered the
father, whether or not there was a formal adoption. This is routine
here, by the way, if the actual parent informs the school that he's
to be treated that way. It can be complicated.)
None of this has any legal significance whatever. If the birth
certificates and legally-binding statements of Hawai'ian state
officials are fake, that would be a real issue. But this wouldn't
make a difference. "Natural born citizen," it is totally clear,
refers to place of birth. Period. There are exceptions under some
circumstances for people born outside the U.S. There is some issue
about children who lived outside the U.S. up to the age of 25. That
didn't apply to Obama.
And *none of this belongs on this list.* It's here only because Jojo
has continued to make his off-topic and highly disruptive claims.
No more original text below.
Jojo
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:ldebiv...@gmail.com>de Bivort Lawrence
To: <mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
Your statements about nationality and about adoption and nationality
are incorrect.
What is your evidence for Obama being "registered as a Muslim"?
On Jan 1, 2013, at 1:11 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote:
While what you are saying about Indonesian schools may be true
today - I am not knowledgeable about the current school system in
Indonesia, so I will not debate that.
While that may be true, it surely wasn't true in the 70's when
Obama went there. Records show he was registered in that school as a muslim.
One more thing, he was adopted by an Indonesian muslim. If he was
adopted to be an Indonesian, he would have automatically lost his
U.S. citizenship and gained Indonesian citizenship and
automatically became a muslim. In Indonesia, you gain the religion
of your adoptive father. Indonesia does not have and never had a
"Dual Citizenship" program with the US. Which means that he would
have had to reacquire his US citizenship when he reached 18. He
had to do something to gain back his US citizenship. Which
automatically made him a naturalized US citizen, not a Natural-Born
US citizen required by our constitution.
One of my cousins was in the same boat and he was born about the
same time as Obama. He was born in U.S. soil (New York) but his
parents brought him back to the Philippines. By US law, as a
minor, he has no official citizenship status if there is a question
as to his citizenship. In my cousin's case, he was born on US soil
to Filipino parents. Hence, his citizenship status was in limbo,
until he can make a decision when he turns 18. He can choose to be
Filipino or US citizen. When my cousin turned 18, he had to go
to the US Embassy to choose US citizen and get his papers
(passport). He is considered a Naturalized US citizen. A person
that has to take action to gain US citizenship is not a Natural
Born US citizen. This is the status of Obama even if he was indeed
born in Hawaii. He would still be a Naturalized US citizen and
hence unqualified.
So, as you can see, Obama is unqualified to be POTUS on many
fronts. The argument about whether he was born in Hawaii or not is
just one aspect of his qualification (non-qualification) to be POTUS.
In a free society like America, such questions about his
qualifications should have been vetted openly. If there was even a
hint as to his qualifications, it should have been settled publicly
and openly. Why don't people take this issue seriously. Even if
people think that his BC was original and valid, people should
still be calling for it to be settled once and for all. Open up
the vault copy. No other steps or half measures will do. Great
controversies require great measures to settle. Let the Birthers
see it and it they are wrong, you get the chance to humiliate them
to your heart's content. If I am wrong about this, I'm sure I will
have great shame and tuck my tail between my legs and go away quietly.
Jojo
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:ldebiv...@gmail.com>de Bivort Lawrence
To: <mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
The earlier posting on "muslim" schools is confused.
Some "Muslim" schools have a curriculum that is based solely on the
Qur'an. This kind of school would only attract non-Muslim students
interested in the Qur'an, or in the culture of Islam.
Some "Muslim" schools have a standard secular curriculum, and are
attended mostly by Muslims, thus confusing some into calling them
"Muslim" schools.
Some "Muslim" schools are merely called such because they operate
in a Muslim country, like Indonesia. This is like calling US public
schools "Christian" because they operate in a predominantly Christian country.
To suggest that President Obama must be a Muslim because he went to
a "Muslim" school in Indonesia is a statement that at best is meaningless.
On Dec 31, 2012, at 4:37 AM, Nigel Dyer wrote:
Indeed. There is a Catholic school in Birmingham, UK, where the
majority of pupils are Muslim
<http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/birminghams-catholic-school-where-90-of-the-pupils-231115>http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/birminghams-catholic-school-where-90-of-the-pupils-231115
Nigel
On 31/12/2012 04:40, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Yes, "Christian" catholic schools are more tolerant of other
faiths, but not muslims. You can not go to a muslim school like
the one Obama went to unless you are a muslim.
Before Lomax spins this again; may I simply ask readers to
research this on their own to see which of us both is lying.
Jojo
