Ed,
It may only be semantics or interpretation of what catalytic
action really is but what you are calling an energy sink that an H+ ion can
fall into by forming a hydroton is also defying COE.. particularly if it has to
repeat this endless reaction many times to dissipate the barrier enough to
allow fusion.. how many photons have to be generated before the barrier falls?
My particular posit may not be accurate but I remain convinced change in
casimir effect as the hydron passes through the balance point is opposing
natural random motion to "power" the anomalous action in these cavities.. it
may be the engine behind your resonance between covalent and monatomic states
-forming the energy sink while opposing the motion of one state through the
sink much more than the other encouraging disassociation and subsequent photon
emission as the hydrotron reforms.
Fran
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 11:25 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
OK Fran, we are getting closer to a mutual understanding. Let me go into more
detail.
The gap creates a separation of charge because the electron charge on the metal
atoms on each wall are not being offset by nearby atoms, as is the case in the
lattice. Consequently, like all clean surfaces, an effective negative charge is
present on both walls. However, unlike a normal surface, the opposite wall is
close enough to create a balanced charge at the midline between the two walls.
This conditions causes an energy sink to form into which any H+ in the metal
lattice can fall by forming the Hydroton. Because this reaction is exothermic,
the Hydroton gets hot and starts to oscillate. This process has the ability to
bring two H nuclei close enough that a nuclear interaction can start. Because
of the oscillation, this close distance lasts only for a brief time, a time too
short for the nuclear interaction to be completed. Consequently, a brief loss
of mass-energy occurs, which is small compared to what can be released once the
two nuclei make full contact. This process is repeated until all mass-energy is
lost and the two nuclei are in contact, thereby fusing into the final nucleus.
There is no need to introduce the concept of Maxwellian demon or any other
novel idea. This is a very simple process. The only novel feature is just how
the two nuclei "know" that they have too much mass-energy for the distance
between them.
Ed Storms
On May 28, 2013, at 7:32 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote:
Ed,
I am fine with the hydron covalent ion you suggest and the resonant theory
leading to photon emission but not so on the build up of negative charge or the
physical - electrical confinement you suggest are responsible for the
configuration inside a gap that is at least tens of atoms wide.. The negative
charge and Gibbs energy still obeys COE and the reversible reaction - resonance
will soon damp out unless the NAE and hydron work together to source energy .
I would point out that catalytic action in a nanotube only occurs at openenings
and defects and therefore your NAE likely represents this same sudden changes
in geometry supported by a standard "pressure" for a certain local volume of Ni
geometry that continually feeds this change. I posit we are looking at a new
level of catalytic action and physical confinement that work against each other
to form a Heisenburg trap / a form of Maxwellian demon that discounts the
disassociation level of your Hydron when it forms a bond at one threshold but
then moves to a different pressure through the same random motion of gas we
have been indoctrinated to believe can not impart usable energy.. I think we
have found an exception with DCE.
Fran
From: MarkI-ZeroPoint [mailto:zeropo...@charter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 3:59 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
Ed replied:
"Yes, the void is very different from the lattice. That is the whole point to
the idea behind the NAE. A nuclear reaction cannot take place in a normal
lattice. A change must take place. This change produces a different condition I
call the NAE. In my model, this NAE is a gap created by stress relief. Other
models imagine a different condition. Regardless of the condition, it MUST
contain hydrons because that is what experiences fusion, which is the essential
result of cold fusion."
OK, so you are positing that as soon as the dislocation or gap forms, hydrons
IMMEDIATELY diffuse into it? Even if the electrode hasn't even been immersed
in the electrolyte yet (if we're talking electrolytic type experiments); or
before hydrogen gas is introduced if we're dealing with a NiH system? I don't
think so...
-Mark
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:24 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Of NAEs and nothingness...
On May 19, 2013, at 11:55 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:
To which Ed answered, mainly expressing what his view is inside this void:
"The answer depends on which theory you accept. In my case, the void consists
initially of a strong negative charge created by the electrons in the wall that
are associated with the metal atoms making up the wall. The charge is strong
because it is now unbalance as a result of the walls being too far apart for
the electron orbits (waves) to be properly balanced. This condition attracts
hydrons (hydrogen ions), which enter the gap by releasing Gibbs energy. In so
doing, they create a tightly bonded covalent structure in the form of a string.
The hydrons in this string are closer together than is normally possible
because the electron concentration between them is higher than normal. When
this structure resonates, the hydrons get even closer together periodically,
depending on the frequency of vibration. Each time they get to within a
critical distance, energy is emitted from each hydron as a photon. Once enough
energy has been emitted as a series of weak photons, the fusion process is
completed by the intervening electron being sucked into the final nuclear
product. The details of how this process works will be described later."
The temperature is very high, but not high enough to melt the surrounding
material. As a result, some energy is lost from the gap as phonons. The
photon/phonon ratio is still unknown. Nevertheless, the rate of photon
emission is large enough to be detected outside of the apparatus when H is used.
To which I respond:
But if the void is tens of 'atom-diameters' across, you are way beyond the
influence of any electrons, unless they are 'free' electrons flying around in
that void. Restrict your viewpoint to only the interior of the void...
Mark, you are making assumptions that do not need to be made. Regardless of
what you imagine might be the case, hydrons MUST assemble because otherwise
they can not fuse. The entire process hinges on hydrons assembling in an
unconventional way. That requirement is basic. The challenge is to discover how
this is possible without violating the laws of thermodynamics. Of course, if
you keep making assumptions, the process can either be rejected or justified,
your choice. I make the assumptions I think can be justified and try to find
where they lead. In my case, they lead to a model that can explain ALL behavior
without making additional assumptions. While this might be a wild goose chase,
it does provide a useful path, which other theories have not done.
*For the sake of argument*, assume that there are NO free atoms, sub-atomic
particles or photons flying around in the void... in that case, do you not have
a *perfect vacuum*? And as to my second question, what's the temperature of a
perfect vacuum? Would it not be 0.00000000000K in temperature?
I have no idea how the concept of vacuum applies. The NAE is a chemical state
within a material. As H enters the state, they generate Gibbs energy, which is
dissipated as heat (phonons). As a result, the region gets hot. The hydrons
would not assemble if this energy were not generated, thereby producing heat.
That is the basic nature of a chemical process.
Ed is positing that the NAE are essential to LENR, and I am positing that the
VOIDs are a major element in the NAE, AND that the conditions in the VOIDs are
NOT those of the bulk, surrounding matter; in fact, they are very different.
To understand the NAE requires an understanding of EXACTLY what the conditions
are INSIDE the voids.
Yes, the void is very different from the lattice. That is the whole point to
the idea behind the NAE. A nuclear reaction cannot take place in a normal
lattice. A change must take place. This change produces a different condition I
call the NAE. In my model, this NAE is a gap created by stress relief. Other
models imagine a different condition. Regardless of the condition, it MUST
contain hydrons because that is what experiences fusion, which is the essential
result of cold fusion.
Ed, perhaps you could summarize what the various viewpoints are as to the
physical environment inside these voids.
The different theories use various features. Hagelstein uses metal atom
vacancies, Miley uses dislocations, Takahashi uses special sites on the
surface, and Kim assumes a BEC can form within the lattice. Each of these
conditions are used to justify formation of a group of hydrons that fuse by
some mysterious process. Other theories (Chubb for example) assume the process
can occur whenever the lattice gets fully saturated with hydrons without a
cluster being required.
Ed Storms
-Mark Iverson
