Hi Christophe, Thanks for replying. I'd like to note that in addition to the quality problems that are created by some of the COI editors, these editors also cost us in terms of volunteer time, focus, and energy. With the available human resources, procedures and tools, my impression is that the community can't keep up with all of the problems, as well as the need to assist good-faith COI editors who would like to have their proposed edits reviewed by a neutral party. So I would very much encourage you and other folks with WMF to look into what more WMF could do to step up WMF assistance in this domain. Certain types of COI editing are very problematic, degrading the quality of Wikipedia and undermining its goal to be a NPOV educational resource, and diverting countless hours of volunteers' time that could be used for other purposes.
Thanks, Pine On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 12:51 AM, Christophe Henner <chen...@wikimedia.org> wrote: > Heu > > To be fair it's a topic that isn't currently in our plate. > > So to be honest, from a board level, I can't really give you an answer > right now. As said before, there might be legal constraints we can't > foresee. > > I made a not to work on that topic, but it might take some time as the > current focus is on the strategy process. > > Have a very good day, > > > > Le 2 janv. 2017 9:46 AM, "Gnangarra" <gnanga...@gmail.com> a écrit : > > Like most in western countries you'll find most of the WMF staff are > currently out of office so I wouldnt expect much back especially not > officially from them until after the 9th January. > > On 2 January 2017 at 16:42, Jytdog at Wikipedia <jytdogte...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > This is something that people can natter over endlessly. > > > > The question is to the WMF board and management. These are the people > who > > can authorize action or not. Anything else is just talk. > > > > Again - what discussions has the WMF had, at the corporate > decision-making > > level, about taking legal action against companies that advertise WP > > editing services and that have no evidence of disclosure as required > under > > the ToU? > > > > Thanks. > > > > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Good points, Gnangarra. I started to write out a reply before realizing > > > that maybe I would give ideas to our adversaries, so I'll wait here for > > > Legal to talk. Perhaps some of us can continue this conversation behind > > > closed doors. > > > > > > Pine > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > I think it would be nice for a more direct input from the WMF over > > those > > > > not following the Terms of use. > > > > > > > > I see some potential pitfalls, even in chasing companies that charge > > for > > > > content; > > > > > > > > - would this draw WMF into a legal editorial position > > > > - would it drive them to further hide their activities > > > > - what would damage would be done if a court says its ok for a > > > > company/individual to control its image even on Wikipedia. we > > already > > > > deal > > > > with the EUs right to vanish > > > > > > > > sometimes its better to not open the can. I think a lot more > > discussion > > > > over the implications and impact is needed unfortunately some of that > > can > > > > only be behind closed doors it going to need community > trust(something > > I > > > > think isnt all there at the moment), before asking the WMF legal to > > > pick a > > > > fight with anyone. > > > > > > > > On 2 January 2017 at 08:52, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > (: I think that Legal could at least describe in general terms what > > > they > > > > > are currently doing and have plans to do in the near future. > > > > > > > > > > If it turns out that the answers are "we aren't doing much and we > > > aren't > > > > > planning to do more", then yes, asking the higher-ups to do > something > > > > about > > > > > this sounds like a good idea. By the way, I think the timing for > this > > > > > discussion is good, because WMF should be in the early stages of > > > > > formulating the 2017-2018 annual plan. > > > > > > > > > > Happy new year! > > > > > > > > > > Pine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Jytdog at Wikipedia < > > > > jytdogte...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Pine, thanks for your reply, but Legal will not do anything like > > this > > > > > > unless they are instructed by management. That is why I directed > > my > > > > > > question to the board and management. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've asked at Jimbo's talk page (bad timing, archived over the > > > > holidays, > > > > > > will repost) and at Katherine's WP talk page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Am very interested to hear from the board and/or WMF management > on > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jytdog > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 10:50:07 -0800 > > > > > > > From: Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, > > > > > > > Wikimedia Legal <le...@wikimedia.org> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing companies > > > that > > > > > > > offer paid editing services > > > > > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > <CAF=dyJhC8UqxkOY9FG9diGyobdgbbQaK_ > > > > > +M=m9E5Bo3aysPAOw@mail.gmail. > > > > > > > com> > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forwarding to Legal. I'm aware of the general problem of > > > undisclosed > > > > > COI > > > > > > > editing, and agree that there should be some enforcement of > this, > > > > > > > particularly given that WMF wants to use Wikipedia's NPOV and > RS > > > > > policies > > > > > > > as part of WMF's marketing. I also wonder if WMF might be able > to > > > > > recover > > > > > > > the costs of enforcement expenses somehow, perhaps by including > a > > > > > > statement > > > > > > > in the TOS that says that people and their employers who engage > > in > > > > > > certain > > > > > > > types of undisclosed COI editing must (1) reimburse WMF for > > > attorney > > > > > > fees, > > > > > > > court fees, and other related costs of investigations and > > > > enforcement, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > (2) forfeit all revenue from their related activities to WMF. > My > > > > guess > > > > > is > > > > > > > that significant financial penalties would be a bigger > deterrent > > > than > > > > > > > name-and-shame and cease-and-desist letters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2016 03:50:03 -0500 > > > > > > > From: Jytdog at Wikipedia <jytdogte...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Where is WMF with pursuing companies > that > > > > offer > > > > > > > paid editing services > > > > > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > <CAAOzcj3cLaJOhvV6LvtqPTtULdj+ > > 9Ccanmht7EJQVLv+Lqa=Ww@mail. > > > > > > > gmail.com> > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am interested to learn if WMF management or the board has > > > discussed > > > > > > > taking legal action against companies that offer services to > edit > > > > > > Wikipedia > > > > > > > and that have no on-Wiki presence disclosing their edits (in > > en-WP > > > at > > > > > > > least) per the Terms of Use. We all know the companies and > their > > > > > > websites, > > > > > > > where they use the Wikipedia name, etc. I have looked and > never > > > > found > > > > > > > disclosure by any of those companies in en-WP. I have looked > and > > > > found > > > > > > no > > > > > > > public evidence of WMF legal engaging with these companies, > other > > > > than > > > > > > > Wiki-PR. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some en-Wiki editors recently identified a long-term paid > editor > > > and > > > > > > > brought the matter to ANI: thread is here > > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia: > > > > > > > Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=757170150# > > > > > > > Earflaps_-_accusations_of_being_an_undisclosed_paid_ > > > > > > > editor_and_a_sock_puppet>. > > > > > > > This brought this whole thing to mind, and is something I have > > been > > > > > > wanting > > > > > > > to ask about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Three questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Has this been discussed, and if so, what has/have the outcomes > > > been? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, is there budget for WMF legal to take action against such > > > > > > companies? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If not, would you all please consider that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > > unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > GN. > > > > President Wikimedia Australia > > > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > -- > GN. > President Wikimedia Australia > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
