Why the harassed normally email T&S but not seeking local help:
Sometimes some kinds of harassment against a person or a group is an orchestrated attempt driven by off-wiki matters. Considering the "importance" of Wikipedia and it's sister projects, and the fundamentally huge size of the movement, it seemed mostly unnoticeable in some cases. These kinds of planned harassment (not only sexual harassment but all forms of harassment) would not normally be observed in large languages used by different nations because the sheer size of the user base diluted their attempts. However, if language becomes national and got very limited outside use apart from the country they are from (i.e. Japanese in Japan, or Korean in Korea,etc. Not saying they have a serious sexual harassment problem, just an example), harassment against the minority may appear in all forms, including but not limited to blocking them from any administrative posts, to sexual harassments to an outright ban of some individuals. In this case, local bodies which deal with harassing would be normally held by those who are, or show sympathy to the harasser, and that is the problem. Local governance (last stand) bodies are usually opaque in nature - the elections to those bodies are normally fair, but it is not transparent enough of what they do just because they are volunteer. Those very large communities normally have a (relatively) inefficient speed to deal with issues because of the number of problems they receive. The irony is that, for the smaller communities is, the abuser would have some connection with the last-stand bodies, that would mean conflict of interest - though with much irony, COI is not observed when they are playing Wikipolitics. This means, you either get a local "slow safe soace" because they receive too many case to review per day, or an "unsafe safe space" because harassers know those who deal with these reports. You either get a language that is too big and inefficient to treat reports, or languages that, because of the size, they harasser may just outright know the ones who deal with these problems. That's why T&S needs way more people. And not all languages have self-governing bodies. P.S. Written by someone who had emailed T&S about harassments against himself. One harasser got a conduct warning while the other one got foundation-blocked. On Mon, Aug 24, 2020, 22:54 Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: > For a person to report harassment they must first feel safe to do so. Not > everyone is capable of dealing with or participating in a public debate > about whether they have been harassed, there is a significant difference > between arguing facts on a topic and dealing with harassment and offensive > comments directed at you. Its a very effective method of ensuring that you > can keep control of subject areas, or part of Wikipedia. What is going > unnoticed, unrecorded and never dealt with is the same people make personal > attacks and harass contributors repeatedly, many of these people are > protected by other at AN/I or large followings that ensure they are almost > untouchable. > > Just like this thread dismissing problems when they are raised is > unhelpful, and has a chilling effect on productive outcomes. The lack of > alternative safe ways to address issues has been a problem for many years > driving away 1,000s of good contributors. > > On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 21:47, Chris Gates via Wikimedia-l < > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote: > > > I fail to understand how requiring public report of publicly-occurring > > harassment is a problem. > > > > If people are being harassed constantly via off-wiki communication, > > emailing a local admin team or T&S is definitely the best thing to do if > > they don’t want to make it public in an on-wiki report. > > > > However, if it’s on-wiki, I don’t see any viable reason as to why it > should > > not be reported on-wiki as well. By no means is it “doubling down” on > > harassment; that doesn’t even make much sense considering that it isn’t > the > > collective community making the harassment, it’s an individual. It also > > doesn’t matter at all what the harasser feels like either; if they’re > > blocked after a civilly-written and clear-cut report on ANI it doesn’t > > matter what they think. It’s not acceptable to have a secret police team > to > > handle every content issue; community input exists for a reason, > especially > > on collaborative projects like this. > > > > Further, when did anyone say the community is not willing to handle > > harassment issues? It truly bothers me to see people write nonsense like > > this. > > > > I will restate: > > > > Local communities appoint administrators to enforce consensus. There is > > consensus that harassment should be responded to with warnings and, if > > repeated or severe, blocks. > > > > These administrators usually have a mailing list and an on-wiki > > noticeboard. These noticeboards are open for anyone to create sections > on, > > and unless a request was clearly made in bad faith or intentionally > misled > > readers, there is practically no chance of successful retaliatory action > on > > the part of the individual who created the harassment. > > > > In this case, a section was made on ANI, multiple editors commented, and > > for some reason the section was removed mid-discussion. It is to be > > expected that someone with an independent viewpoint would seek less > radical > > action than someone directly a party of the dispute. In this case, there > > was incivility and arguable harassment coming from both parties, though > > clearly “cutie” is not conducive to the desired contributory environment. > > > > Simple conduct cases are not the sort of issue for T&S. Let them (and > often > > stewards) handle the threats to life, the vandals trying to find where > > editors live, the IPs making terrorist threats, the new accounts > uploading > > child pornography, the vandals spreading the private details of editors, > > etc. Basic conduct issues can be handled by local administrators. > > > > And for the “chilling effect” of reporting issues like this publicly, if > > someone is incapable of seeing other people interpret events another way, > > disagreeing with them, or not wanting as drastic and immediate action, > they > > may not be suited for a collaborative project. > > > > There are easy ways to handle people who are clearly harassing you > on-wiki: > > 1) Ask them to stop. If they refuse, > > 2) Create a section on ANI giving a short, simple, and unbiased > explanation > > of the issue with diffs. > > 3) Wait for editors and admins to comment. If the community believes it’s > > problematic enough to warrant action, action will be taken. If no and the > > harassment continues continues, > > 4) Most projects have other methods of handling issues like this. Enwiki > > has ArbCom for this, simplewiki has community sanction discussions, other > > projects have other methods. > > > > At no point would removing the ANI report mid-discussion be helpful. And > > doing so then claiming that it’s the community’s fault is clearly > > incorrect. > > > > Regards, > > Vermont > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 01:46 Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The code of conduct is not a law. People who are harassers are > > criminals > > > > and not above the law. Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any > kind > > > > of harrasment is an offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the > law > > > > and not above the law. > > > > > > Wikipedia is not above the law. > > > > > > > > > The international aspects and the fact that WMF protects editors > privacy > > > makes options outside the movement very limited to only the extreme end > > of > > > the scale. Beside the legal aspect its a cop out for the Community & > WMF > > to > > > dismiss any harassment as something they cant do anything about, this > > > response is why AN/I is also a waste of time and why so much harassment > > > never gets dealt with, ultimately why the movement has difficulty in > > > attracting under represented groups > > > > > > On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 13:14, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < > > > anonymuswikiped...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > The code of conduct is not a law. > > > > People who are harassers are criminals and not above the law. > > > > Sexual harassment is a serious offense. Any kind of harrasment is an > > > > offense. Wikipedia s administrators are not the law and not above the > > > law. > > > > Wikipedia is not above the law. > > > > People who seek help should be appointed to the right specialized > > > > authorities as the police and not discouraged to do so. > > > > > > > > Safety team from my experience, will not help any wikipedian/victim > who > > > > with report a harrasment case. They are just another department of > > > > wikimedia foundation. > > > > > > > > Any people is important and count. > > > > Please take what ever actions you think is necessary. > > > > > > > > I believe you. > > > > > > > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > > > > > > > > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 7:39 π.μ. ο χρήστης Robert Myers < > > > > robert.my...@wikimedia.org.au> έγραψε: > > > > > > > > > And there the problem lies, going to local authorities (police) > isn’t > > > > > going to be useful. Some authorities require the alleged crime to > be > > > > > committed in their jurisdiction, which can be limited, anonymous > > nature > > > > of > > > > > the person who committed the alleged crime makes it difficult to > > > identify > > > > > the individual(s), with it servers hosted outside the jurisdiction > > make > > > > it > > > > > harder to investigate. Also I have seen in the past, WP:LEGAL used > > > > against > > > > > those who have reported threats of physical violence or harassment > > > > > (physical stalking) to law enforcement. > > > > > > > > > > I do think there needs to be a off-wiki complaint process for > serious > > > > > allegations, since on-wiki processes can be inappropriate and acts > > as a > > > > > chilling effect (since it is very open and public) on the > victim(s). > > > The > > > > > same situation can occur for alleged perpetrator(s), where the > > > > > allegation(s) are false or vexatious and malicious grievances. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe the Universal Code of Conduct might address this issue, it > > might > > > > not > > > > > as well. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Robert Myers > > > > > robert.my...@wikimedia.org.au > > > > > http://www.wikimedia.org.au > > > > > > > > > > > On 24 Aug 2020, at 1:37 pm, Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής < > > > > > anonymuswikiped...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If you ve been sexually harassed in wikipedia this is not a > matter > > > to > > > > be > > > > > > solved on a mailing list or by Safety team. Go to you local > > > authorities > > > > > and > > > > > > report it. This is a very serious matter to just become an essay > > for > > > > > > someone or belive that it can be solved by administrators or > safety > > > > team. > > > > > > Safety team in my harassment case told me to "politely" ask my > > > > harrasers > > > > > to > > > > > > stop harassing me. Please don t relay on them for such a serious > > > > matter! > > > > > > Please be safe and I m sure you can seek help by trained and > > serious > > > > > people > > > > > > by your local authorities. > > > > > > I wish someone could told me that in my case then and not point > me > > to > > > > > > safety team. They will not help you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Στις Δευ, 24 Αυγ 2020, 3:41 π.μ. ο χρήστης Gnangarra < > > > > > gnanga...@gmail.com> > > > > > > έγραψε: > > > > > > > > > > > >> If someone feels harassed then a public noticeboard is the last > > > place > > > > to > > > > > >> send them for help, that is an absolute failure of the > community > > to > > > > > >> understand that the act of reporting is also doubling down on > the > > > > harm. > > > > > >> Doing so publicly is indicating to the person committing the > > > > harassment > > > > > >> that they have succeeded in causing harm. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This folks is the very reason why we fail to retain editors and > > > breach > > > > > the > > > > > >> imbalance of editors and continue have trouble with bias. > > Everyone > > > > > speaks > > > > > >> english but the cultural nuances of the language vary greatly > with > > > > words > > > > > >> having multiple meanings and being used specifically to cause > > > offense. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The word cutie has its meanings; > > > > > >> > > > > > >> - of being nice looking when talking about kids and animals > > > > > >> > > > > > >> but once its used referring to an adult as part of a discussion > > its > > > > > changes > > > > > >> to that of them being; > > > > > >> > > > > > >> - of being an arsehole > > > > > >> - of being picky > > > > > >> - and of having sexual connotations ranging from you are > > fuckable, > > > > to > > > > > >> your sexual orientation. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> When these complaints get to something like AN/I those cultural > > and > > > > > >> linguistic nuances get dismissed and the person using them has > > > gained > > > > a > > > > > lot > > > > > >> of power, self satisfaction, and endorsement of their harassment > > as > > > > > being > > > > > >> ok, with a bonus that other users are now also enabled to harass > > the > > > > > >> complaining editor knowing full well that AN/I will do nothing. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The bottom line is if a person feels harassed they have been > > > harassed, > > > > > >> whether we understand the depth of why they feel harassed is not > > > > > relevant > > > > > >> but that should not be a barrier to prevent further harassment. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 06:21, Isaac Olatunde < > > > > reachout2is...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Hello Chris, > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> This isn't a terribly bad advise, AFAICS. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Harassments are treated on a case-by-case basis. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> So, if this is something you aren't comfortable discussing > > > publicly, > > > > > you > > > > > >>> could email the Functionary team or ArbCom or similar body in > > that > > > > > >>> community. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> If it's something that should be removed from public view, you > > > could > > > > > >>> contact the oversight team. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> I can't see the contents of the harassment, so I can only speak > > > based > > > > > on > > > > > >>> general principle. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Regards > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Isaac > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020, 23:07 Chris Sherlock, < > > > > chris.sherloc...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> To be clear, this is what I was advised: > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> “ Harassment concerns can be reviewed under the appropriate > > > > community > > > > > >>>> process. I would therefore advise you to report the edit > summary > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > >>>> appropriate channels on the wiki it occured. If this happened > on > > > > > >> English > > > > > >>>> Wikipedia, this would be the Administrator's board for > > incidents. > > > > > >>>> I hope the above is helpful.” > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Chris > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>>> On 24 Aug 2020, at 6:43 am, Chris Sherlock < > > > > > >> chris.sherloc...@gmail.com > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Hello all, > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> I have been advised by the WMF that if anyone is concerned > > about > > > > > >> being > > > > > >>>> sexually harassed they must report this to AN/I and there are > no > > > > > >> private > > > > > >>>> mechanisms to report this sort of thing. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Is this for real? > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Chris Sherlock > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > >>>> Unsubscribe: > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > > > , > > > > > >>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > >>> Unsubscribe: > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> -- > > > > > >> GN. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > > > > > >> *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > > > > > >> Wikimania Bangkok 2021 > > > > > >> August > > > > > >> hosted by ESEAP > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > > > >> Noongarpedia: > > https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > > > > >> My print shop: > > > https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > >> Unsubscribe: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > > , > > > > > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > >> > > > > > > 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> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > GN. > > > > > > *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > > > *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > > > Wikimania Bangkok 2021 > > > August > > > hosted by ESEAP > > > > > > Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > > My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > -- > GN. > > *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > Wikimania Bangkok 2021 > August > hosted by ESEAP > > Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
