I thought I heard a few years ago that the Canopy division was actually
losing money? I would think that would be one of the first divisions to
get sold off if it's not as profitable as the others.
Travis
Microserv
3-dB Networks wrote:
Eje,
I know you don't work closely with Motorola... but I interact with an
employee over there at least once a week... often times more.
The handset division is killing Motorola, this is public knowledge. Until
the split occurs and they sell off the division (which they have also made
that intention public) I don't see Motorola as a whole looking good as a
company.
Motorola though obviously realizes the revenue that the Wi4 portfolio is
generating (i.e. wireless broadband gear) and has increased spending on the
product line. They have done some semi-big changes in the channel to
increase sales... its obvious they are committed to the product... even
though the total revenue might be a decimal point on the big Motorola
balance sheet...
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Sorry but this comment makes me laugh that you can throw out a number like
this when the "wise" people that do statistics can't even come to a true
conclusion how many wisps and other unlicensed operators there are out
there. To state these numbers as well with as many privately owned
manufacturers and distributors there are out there selling unlicensed
equipment I personally wouldn't dare throw out numbers like that so
casually like it was THE truth.
Sure Canopy got a great product and have a big market space. But in the
big scope on the Moto radar Canopy is a very small market and Moto got
their status downgraded to junk by S&P this week. If they really start
hurting I do not doubt seeing them hesitate for 2second to scrap or sell
their Canopy line.
/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:25:37
To: WISPA General List<wireless@wispa.org>
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Digis was 100% Canopy. I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the
purchase.
We have 5000+ all Canopy.
Mot has more than 50% of the US market. So the other 50% is made up of
Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are
at
your not that far off...
Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they
bought...
Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part
of
them. Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband. All Canopy shops (granted Mesa
had
some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's
part
of the network).
Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
that
back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
provider
market.
What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest
Urban
WISPs. They use Aperto.
What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one
two
occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot
of
Alvarion later on.
What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
Trango
at one point.
What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
was
mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
primarilly a Canopy shop.
Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to
evolve
in
compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and
beyond.
But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays,
most
all
of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of
the
largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs
to
now
buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting
that
Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a
leap
frog
game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific
application
on
this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well
may
bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are
new
products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650
markets.
And the comment "are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.", that's
a
croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years
later,
my
Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had
the
reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that
could
afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
"small
operators." To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering
leader,
and
favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down
the
path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps
capacities,
therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into
winning
business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and
doesn't
want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left
that
can do it at near the same price point.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
----- Original Message -----
From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I guess we need to define large... :-)
You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over
say
1000
customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in
say
2006
on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and
now
they
are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.
I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.
I
for
one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and
they
all
use Canopy...
Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very
wrong
:-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I
apologize!)
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may
use
Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true.
I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango,
Alvarion,
StarOS, etc.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
----- Original Message -----
From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Steve,
I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our
company
we
are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part
of
our
success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an
article
here
about leasing that might change your mind.
http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx
Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it
allows
you
to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase
your
revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the
interest,
but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from
your
vendor
instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it
better
in
the
article.
Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that
another
WISP
can
replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is
equipment
related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an
802.11a/b/g
solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers
were
on
KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really
fast.
We
had
many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been
successful
without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an
AP.
Our
WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we
hit
the
limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo
network
in
2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that
much
(its
all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to
it).
So
while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network
and
start
over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a
reason.
My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents
isn't
worth
much anymore)
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On
Behalf Of Steve Barnes
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it
so
that
the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.
You
still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the
ROI
takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease
Co.
Can you help me with that one.
Steve
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the
install
fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside
down"
on
every new customer.
Travis
Microserv
Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000
subscribers
things will be a bit better.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
<mailto:wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
different
WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
equipment
that is so often discussed on this list.
I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch
each
penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to
service the
clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
that
what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8
towers with
320 clients.
The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
$59.99 Pro
Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn
off the
speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
on any
of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
Full
Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
of with
another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to
achieve
10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
What do
you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have
started you
service". I was providing a solution. So this is what I have
and I
know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
the same
boat.
So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND
definition
without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is
everyone
charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing
is not
readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
No
Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
Verizon.
Steve Barnes
RC-WiFi.com
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