Units sold. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>> Mot has more than 50% of the US market > > Is that based on amount of gear sold, or amount of gear still deployed? > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:25 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds > > >> Digis was 100% Canopy. I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the >> purchase. >> We have 5000+ all Canopy. >> Mot has more than 50% of the US market. So the other 50% is made up of >> Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> >> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds >> >> >>> That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are >>> at >>> your not that far off... >>> >>> Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they >>> bought... >>> Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part >>> of >>> them. Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband. All Canopy shops (granted Mesa >>> had >>> some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's >>> Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's >>> part >>> of the network). >>> >>> Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you? >>> >>> Daniel White >>> 3-dB Networks >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >>>> Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 >>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds >>>> >>>> JAB? They probably have 50,000 subs by now. Canopy shop. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds >>>> >>>> >>>> > Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that. >>>> > >>>> > But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics >>>> > that >>>> > back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large >>>> > provider >>>> > market. >>>> > >>>> > What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest >>>> > Urban >>>> > WISPs. They use Aperto. >>>> > What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one >>>> > two >>>> > occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot >>>> > of >>>> > Alvarion later on. >>>> > What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of >>>> > Trango >>>> > at one point. >>>> > What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user. >>>> > What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he >>>> was >>>> > mostly Tranzeo and StarOS. >>>> > What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT >>>> > primarilly a Canopy shop. >>>> > >>>> > Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to >>>> > evolve >>>> in >>>> > compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and >>>> > beyond. >>>> > But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris. >>>> > >>>> > You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, >>>> > most >>>> > all >>>> > of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of >>>> > the >>>> > largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs >>>> > to >>>> > now >>>> > buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting >>>> > that >>>> > Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay. >>>> > >>>> > I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a >>>> > leap >>>> > frog >>>> > game. Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently, >>>> > because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific >>>> > application >>>> > on >>>> > this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well >>>> > may >>>> > bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are >>>> new >>>> > products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 >>>> > markets. >>>> > >>>> > And the comment "are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.", that's >>>> > a >>>> > croc. If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years >>>> > later, >>>> > my >>>> > Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed. >>>> > >>>> > I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had >>>> > the >>>> > reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that >>>> > could >>>> > afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for >>>> > "small >>>> > operators." To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering >>>> > leader, >>>> > and >>>> > favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down >>>> > the >>>> > path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps >>>> > capacities, >>>> > therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into >>>> > winning >>>> > business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and >>>> > doesn't >>>> > want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left >>>> that >>>> > can do it at near the same price point. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Tom DeReggi >>>> > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>>> > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> > To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>> > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM >>>> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>I guess we need to define large... :-) >>>> >> >>>> >> You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over >>>> >> say >>>> >> 1000 >>>> >> customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in >>>> >> say >>>> >> 2006 >>>> >> on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and >>>> >> now >>>> >> they >>>> >> are swapping out their Trango gear anyways. >>>> >> >>>> >> I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark. >>>> >> I >>>> for >>>> >> one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and >>>> >> they >>>> >> all >>>> >> use Canopy... >>>> >> >>>> >> Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very >>>> >> wrong >>>> >> :-) I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I >>>> >> apologize!) >>>> >> >>>> >> Daniel White >>>> >> 3-dB Networks >>>> >> >>>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> On >>>> >>> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi >>>> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM >>>> >>> To: WISPA General List >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds >>>> >>> >>>> >>> > the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may >>>> use >>>> >>> Canopy.. But that comment is in no way true. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, >>>> >>> Alvarion, >>>> >>> StarOS, etc. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Tom DeReggi >>>> >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>>> >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> >>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> > Steve, >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our >>>> >>> > company >>>> >>> we >>>> >>> > are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part >>>> >>> > of >>>> our >>>> >>> > success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP. He wrote an >>>> article >>>> >>> here >>>> >>> > about leasing that might change your mind. >>>> http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > Basically look at it this way. If you lease your equipment, it >>>> allows >>>> >>> you >>>> >>> > to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase >>>> your >>>> >>> > revenue. You end up paying more in the long run because of the >>>> >>> interest, >>>> >>> > but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from >>>> >>> > your >>>> >>> vendor >>>> >>> > instead of individual or 5 packs. Todd probably explains it >>>> >>> > better >>>> in >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> > article. >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that >>>> >>> > another >>>> >>> > WISP >>>> >>> > can >>>> >>> > replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is >>>> equipment >>>> >>> > related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an >>>> >>> 802.11a/b/g >>>> >>> > solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers >>>> >>> > were >>>> on >>>> >>> > KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really >>>> >>> > fast. >>>> >>> > We >>>> >>> > had >>>> >>> > many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been >>>> successful >>>> >>> > without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an >>>> >>> > AP. >>>> >>> > Our >>>> >>> > WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we >>>> hit >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> > limitations of the KarlNet system. My experiences with a Tranzeo >>>> >>> network >>>> >>> > in >>>> >>> > 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that >>>> >>> > much >>>> >>> (its >>>> >>> > all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to >>>> it). >>>> >>> So >>>> >>> > while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network >>>> >>> > and >>>> >>> > start >>>> >>> > over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a >>>> reason. >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents >>>> >>> > isn't >>>> >>> > worth >>>> >>> > much anymore) >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > Daniel White >>>> >>> > 3-dB Networks >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>> >> On >>>> >>> >> Behalf Of Steve Barnes >>>> >>> >> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM >>>> >>> >> To: WISPA General List >>>> >>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it >>>> >>> >> so >>>> >>> >> that >>>> >>> >> the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install. >>>> You >>>> >>> >> still have to pay for it. It may make cash flow easier but the >>>> >>> >> ROI >>>> >>> >> takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease >>>> >>> >> Co. >>>> >>> >> Can you help me with that one. >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> Steve >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>> >> On >>>> >>> >> Behalf Of Travis Johnson >>>> >>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM >>>> >>> >> To: WISPA General List >>>> >>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the >>>> >>> install >>>> >>> >> fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside >>>> >>> >> down" >>>> >>> >> on >>>> >>> >> every new customer. >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> Travis >>>> >>> >> Microserv >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> You are doing it. Just keep bootstrapping. Once you get 1000 >>>> >>> >> subscribers >>>> >>> >> things will be a bit better. >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>> >> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> >>> >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> >>> >> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>> >>> >> <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> >>>> >>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM >>>> >>> >> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth >>>> >>> >> different >>>> >>> >> WISP offer. I want to discuss that as well as the recommended >>>> >>> >> equipment >>>> >>> >> that is so often discussed on this list. >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> I am a startup. Little to no startup capital. I had to pinch >>>> >>> >> each >>>> >>> >> penny to get as much as possible out of it. My goal was to >>>> >>> >> service the >>>> >>> >> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other >>>> >>> >> that >>>> >>> >> what Verizon holds hostage. So now after 2 years I have 8 >>>> >>> >> towers with >>>> >>> >> 320 clients. >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a >>>> >>> >> $59.99 Pro >>>> >>> >> Level 1M x 512k. You guys are talking about 10Mb. If I turn >>>> >>> >> off the >>>> >>> >> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M >>>> >>> >> on any >>>> >>> >> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS >>>> >>> >> Full >>>> >>> >> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost >>>> >>> >> of with >>>> >>> >> another WISP my size. The investment I would have to make to >>>> >>> >> achieve >>>> >>> >> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible. >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes. >>>> >>> >> What do >>>> >>> >> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future. >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have >>>> >>> >> started you >>>> >>> >> service". I was providing a solution. So this is what I have >>>> >>> >> and I >>>> >>> >> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in >>>> >>> >> the same >>>> >>> >> boat. >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> So BIG GUYS think back. How do I grow into new BROADBAND >>>> >>> >> definition >>>> >>> >> without rebuilding my network from the ground up. What is >>>> >>> >> everyone >>>> >>> >> charging and what does the client get for that price. Financing >>>> >>> >> is not >>>> >>> >> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI. >>>> >>> >> No >>>> >>> >> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge >>>> >>> >> Verizon. >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> Steve Barnes >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> RC-WiFi.com >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> >>> - >>>> >>> >> -------- >>>> >>> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>> >>> >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> >>> - >>>> >>> >> -------- >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> >>> - >>>> >>> >> -------- >>>> >>> >> WISPA Wants You! 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