It is 60 ish miles away, but Eugene has Electric Lightwave, 360 networks, Global Crossing, Level3 (they may even have fiber in your town).
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -------------------------------------------------- From: "George Rogato" <wi...@oregonfast.net> Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 11:24 AM To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > Yeah I realize that. We're luycky that Boneville and Williams did a big > fiber deal many years ago that put fiber all across the North West.. > Still is not easy to get access, the transport costs are quite high, but > it's possible. > > maybe some of the emp[hasis on the broadband stimulus money ought to be > pointed at getting big fiber pipes to the area or region rather than > getting fiber to the home. > > > > > RickG wrote: >> George, >> Sounds great and mus be nice but there are no facilities in the >> boondocks! >> -RickG >> >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 10:15 PM, George Rogato >> <wi...@oregonfast.net>wrote: >> >>> Kinda high >>> If you are lucky and you have access to fiber consider this >>> >>> Cogent, if you buy a GigE port and commit to 200 megs, you can have it >>> for $5.00 per meg, or minimum of $1,000.00 per month and that comes with >>> a whopping 200 megs, if you need to exceed 200 megs, it's just $5.00 per >>> meg. >>> >>> If you get to $4,000 per month usage, then the price drops to $4.00 per >>> meg. >>> >>> George >>> >>> >>> Blair Davis wrote: >>>> Some simple numbers... >>>> >>>> $1700/month for 10Mbits. Much better than the $600 per 1.54Mbit I was >>>> paying out here. >>>> >>>> 1Mbit per Netflix or IPTV user. >>>> >>>> $170 cost of bandwidth per user. >>>> >>>> Users out here are not going to pay that. Period. >>>> >>>> The problem, out in the rural areas at least, is not delivering the >>>> bandwidth, it is getting it at a reasonable cost. >>>> >>>> These apps use an order of magnitude more bandwidth than the standard >>>> web browsing and email apps we are used to. But the users don't and >>>> won't understand that. >>>> >>>> If you went to buy a new TV and it used an order of magnitude more >>>> power >>>> to run it, your electric bill would soon show you the error of your >>>> ways. >>>> >>>> The only real solution to this problem is to move to per bit pricing. >>>> That way, users will see the cost of what they are doing and adjust >>>> their usage to what they are willing to pay for. >>>> >>>> Netflix, IPTV and other apps like them simply shift the their cost of >>>> doing business to us. Unless we either refuse to support these apps, >>>> or >>>> begin billing our users for them, it will kill us. >>>> >>>> The cable and dsl providers are starting to figure this out. >>>> >>>> Blair >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom DeReggi wrote: >>>>>> Why is the wireless world happy with being 10 years behind the wired >>>>>> world? >>>>>> >>>>> Depends who you are referring by stating "wireless world". >>>>> >>>>> The WISP providers are surely NOT "happy" with that. They are just >>>>> realistic about what they have available. >>>>> And they are creative enough to understand that there are still >>>>> markets >>>>> willing to deal with that, because WISPs have other things to offer of >>> equal >>>>> or greater value, to creat a WISP market. >>>>> >>>>> I'm also not sure the public is "happy" with that. I haven't heard one >>>>> public advocate at Broadband public meetings advocating "Please give >>> money >>>>> to wireless companies so we can have slower service". Wireless will >>>>> be >>> a >>>>> part of Stimulus grants because... We can argue we'll get you service >>>>> sooner, and we'll stretch the dollar further to serve more areas and >>> people, >>>>> so less people get left without being served, and more people get >>>>> better >>>>> service than they currently have. In the long run, with Wireless, >>> consumers >>>>> will have to compromise for less, in exchange for the instant >>> gratification >>>>> that can be gained today. >>>>> >>>>> WISPs deal with it because comparatively they are either broke, lazy, >>>>> or >>>>> impatient, in order to meet demand. Or I should say, don't want to end >>> up >>>>> broke. >>>>> I'm not meaning to be derogatory in using those terms. What I mean >>>>> is... >>>>> >>>>> Sure we'd all like to lay fiber. We just don't want to wait 20 years >>> for an >>>>> ROI (impatient :-). We don't have millions and billions of Finance >>> capabilty >>>>> upfront (broke :-). >>>>> We don't want to spend years trying to get permits and negotiating >>> easements >>>>> with entities that care less about advancing our cause quickly (lazy >>> :-). >>>>> The truth is Monopolies are willing to do all these things. But they >>> also >>>>> grudgingly backout of their committments and delay as long as >>>>> possible, >>>>> because honestly they don't want to do it either, and are even more >>> lazy, >>>>> and clearly have all the time in the world, without competition >>>>> forcing >>> them >>>>> to work harder. >>>>> >>>>> The truth is, Wireless providers DO NEED faster equipment. And the >>> Truth >>>>> is, we really aren't "lazy". (I was just kidding before :-) >>>>> >>>>> So.... WiMax vendors, Make us faster equipment!!! That we can Afford >>>>> today!!! >>>>> >>>>> There is a lot of grant money comming up this year. Here is your >>>>> chance >>> for >>>>> volume orders, from the WISP market. Give us a reason to stay wireless >>>>> providers and not to become a fiber provider. Backhaul transport >>> providers >>>>> are doing their part. But I think last mile manufacturers still have >>>>> to >>> do a >>>>> better job. But more importantly give grant Decission makers a reason >>>>> to >>>>> favor wireless. Give them speeds that public advocates will be excited >>>>> about. And give us price points that will let us do microcells to >>> accomplish >>>>> top penetration. Wimax isn;t competing against wifi anymore, they are >>>>> competing against fiber. I admit, Its a tall order to fill. But I >>>>> think >>>>> clever innovators should be able to fill it. >>>>> >>>>> $7 billion is not a lot to come anywhere close to helping "All" >>> Americans >>>>> get next generation broadband. But $7 billion is a hech of a lot of >>> money >>>>> to inject into an ISP manufacturer industry. Lets just say $1 billion >>>>> of >>> it >>>>> would go to Wireless infrastructure. Thats a lot of gear. Lets start >>>>> getting creative with those volume order low price offers? How low can >>> you >>>>> go to get a peice of that $billion? >>>>> >>>>> Manufacturers, Let us know! The industry is writing their grant >>> proposals >>>>> now. >>>>> >>>>> Tom DeReggi >>>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kevin Suitor" <ksui...@redlinecommunications.com> >>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 3:23 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Folks, >>>>>> >>>>>> I seem to have too much time on my hands since I'm on vacation. This >>>>>> thread prompted me to put a quick back of the napkin ROI analysis >>>>>> together to see which service options I'd want to be pushing on the >>>>>> market. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I did was review Bell Canada's service offer - why, because they >>>>>> offer Wireless, DSL & Fiber based Internet services in competition to >>>>>> Rogers Cable and Cogeco Cable (ON) and Videotron and Cogeco Cable(Qc) >>>>>> along with a variety of WISPs, satellite providers, in other words >>>>>> the >>>>>> entire spectrum of competition. As many of you may know Canada ranks >>> in >>>>>> the top 10 worldwide for broadband penetration according to the >>>>>> latest >>>>>> OECD rankings with 23.8% BB penetration, the United States ranked >>>>>> 15th >>>>>> with 19.6% penetration. >>>>>> >>>>>> I opted not to include their wireless offer in the model. For the >>>>>> record their 512/512 Portable Internet service using an AC powered >>>>>> indoor CPE as the terminal device selling for $17.95/month; they >>>>>> offer >>> a >>>>>> 2000/800 Rural service with either indoor or outdoor CPE beginning at >>>>>> $40/month; and a 3000/1000 Portable using the same indoor CPE as in >>>>>> the >>>>>> first offer. All CPE are sold at $99 to the customer. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I've done is outline the UL/DL speeds, cost per month, and a >>>>>> sliding scale of oversubscription rates (actual rate used by Bell >>>>>> seems >>>>>> to be between 20 and 40 based upon historical data depending on >>>>>> take-up >>>>>> rate in an area. This then generates a kbps / subscriber figure >>>>>> which >>>>>> was then divided into the capacity per sector (I'm using the average >>>>>> real world sector capacity from our worldwide base of 7 MHz RedMAX >>>>>> customers as reported by our Redline Management Suite application >>>>>> that >>>>>> we use to monitor production networks under a professional services >>>>>> agreement). I then divided this by the avg kbps/client to calculate >>> the >>>>>> maximum subscribers per sector. I then took the peak subs multiplied >>> by >>>>>> monthly ARPU to calculate the monthly and annual peak revenue stream >>> per >>>>>> sector. The required CAPEX per sector was calculated based upon a >>>>>> sector controller, shared common costs (GPS, UPS, tower climb, and >>> other >>>>>> site acquisition costs - WW avg.) and the cost of the number of CPE >>>>>> required by the peak subscriber calculation. The ROI in months is >>>>>> the >>>>>> CAPEX divided by the monthly ARPU. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've highlighted the sweet spot avg 18 month ROI lines in each model >>>>>> that indicates with between 19 and 229 subscribers, depending upon >>>>>> the >>>>>> SLA you'd be able to achieve and ROI acceptable to almost any >>>>>> financier >>>>>> using WiMAX. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers! >>>>>> Kevin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> NOTE: Modeled upon Bell Canada's Internet Service offer when using a >>>>>> WiMAX BTS to deliver the stated SLAs (all are best effort, >>>>>> residential >>>>>> services on a 7 MHz channel with mix of LOS and NLOS customers): >>>>>> >>>>>> Monthly Max Subs per >>>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI >>>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription >>>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded >>>>>> sector (months) >>>>>> $ 17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 40 25 >>>>>> 640 $ 11,488.00 $ 137,856.00 $ >>>>>> 300,750 26.17949 >>>>>> $ 27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 40 70 >>>>>> 229 $ 6,388.57 $ 76,662.86 $ >>>>>> 115,607 18.09593 >>>>>> $ 37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 40 200 >>>>>> 80 $ 3,036.00 $ 36,432.00 $ >>>>>> 48,750 16.05731 >>>>>> $ 42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 40 275 >>>>>> 58 $ 2,498.91 $ 29,986.91 $ >>>>>> 38,932 15.57953 >>>>>> $ 72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 40 425 >>>>>> 38 $ 2,746.35 $ 32,956.24 $ >>>>>> 29,691 10.81113 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Monthly Max Subs per >>>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI >>>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription >>>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded >>>>>> sector (months) >>>>>> $ 17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 30 33 >>>>>> 480 $ 8,616.00 $ 103,392.00 $ >>>>>> 228,750 26.54944 >>>>>> $ 27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 30 93 >>>>>> 171 $ 4,791.43 $ 57,497.14 $ >>>>>> 89,893 18.76118 >>>>>> $ 37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 30 267 >>>>>> 60 $ 2,277.00 $ 27,324.00 $ >>>>>> 39,750 17.45718 >>>>>> $ 42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 30 367 >>>>>> 44 $ 1,874.18 $ 22,490.18 $ >>>>>> 32,386 17.28027 >>>>>> $ 72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 30 567 >>>>>> 28 $ 2,059.76 $ 24,717.18 $ >>>>>> 25,456 12.35864 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Monthly Max Subs per >>>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI >>>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription >>>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded >>>>>> sector (months) >>>>>> $ 17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 20 50 >>>>>> 320 $ 5,744.00 $ 68,928.00 $ >>>>>> 156,750 27.28935 >>>>>> $ 27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 20 140 >>>>>> 114 $ 3,194.29 $ 38,331.43 $ >>>>>> 64,179 20.09168 >>>>>> $ 37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 20 400 >>>>>> 40 $ 1,518.00 $ 18,216.00 $ >>>>>> 30,750 20.25692 >>>>>> $ 42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 20 550 >>>>>> 29 $ 1,249.45 $ 14,993.45 $ >>>>>> 25,841 20.68175 >>>>>> $ 72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 20 850 >>>>>> 19 $ 1,373.18 $ 16,478.12 $ >>>>>> 21,221 15.45365 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett >>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:58 PM >>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? >>>>>> >>>>>> 2 megs is yesterday's news. >>>>>> >>>>>> U-Verse is 18/1.5 >>>>>> FiOS is 50/20 >>>>>> Charter has 60/5 >>>>>> Comcast has 50/10 >>>>>> >>>>>> 2 megs is 36 times faster than 56k. Charter is 30 times faster than >>>>>> that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why is the wireless world happy with being 10 years behind the wired >>>>>> world? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- >>>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions >>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Kevin Suitor" <ksui...@redlinecommunications.com> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 10:42 AM >>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> We have customers worldwide who operate sectors typically with >>>>>>> >>>>>> hundreds >>>>>> >>>>>>> of residential clients with 2 Mbps downlink / 256 or 512 kbps uplink >>>>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>> some with who run entry level service (by NA standards) of 384 kbps >>>>>>> downlink / 128 kbps uplink that have an average of 250 clients per >>>>>>> sector with 6 sectors per BTS in an urban market. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The WiMAX MAC is much more sophisticated than other MACs used in >>>>>>> wireless networking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>> Kevin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>>>>> >>>>>> On >>>>>> >>>>>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 2:20 PM >>>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> More troll than substance but I wouldn't put more than 30 users on a >>>>>>> WiMAX >>>>>>> AP anyway... not enough bandwidth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions >>>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> From: "Jeff Booher" <jefftho...@fastmail.fm> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:28 AM >>>>>>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is not the same gear by any means. Tranzeo's AP is a micro base >>>>>>>> station, >>>>>>>> that only supports 30 subscribers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:34 PM >>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm certainly interested in ptmp. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Tranzeo gear is the same as Aperto isn't it? >>>>>>>> marlon >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Gino Villarini" <g...@aeronetpr.com> >>>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:35 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ligowave its ptp in 3.65... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Might wanna look at tranzeo for 3.65 ptmp >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gino A. Villarini >>>>>>>>> g...@aeronetpr.com >>>>>>>>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. >>>>>>>>> tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org >>> ] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Leon Zetekoff >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 9:32 PM >>>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Marlon...I'd look at the Ligowave stuff similar in principle to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> UBNT stuff but I think much better. That's what I'd do today. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Take care leon >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marlon K. Schafer wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm looking into this too. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So far I can't find a solution for rural towers. A 3 sector >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> install >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> at $20k? Not to service the 20 people that will be able to even >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> see >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that tower.... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyone have any better ideas? >>>>>>>>>> marlon >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Gino Villarini" <g...@aeronetpr.com> >>>>>>>>>> To: "Motorola Canopy User Group" <motor...@wispa.org>; "WISPA >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> General >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> List" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:55 AM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Fellow operators: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Any updates on your experienes with 3.65 gear? PMP and PTP? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Any updates on experiences with: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Redline, Aperto, Tranzeo, Vecima, Alvarion, Ligowave, Solectek, >>>>>>>>>>> Airspan ??? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gino A. Villarini >>>>>>>>>>> g...@aeronetpr.com >>>>>>>>>>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. >>>>>>>>>>> tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>>>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>>>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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