When you have a 5MHz or 10MHz channel which is within the spectrum of a competitor's 20MHz channel, doesn't the adaptive nature of OFDM cause the competitor's 20MHz link to not use the OFDM carriers in the portion of the spectrum your 5MHz or 10MHz channel is occupying?
Greg On Nov 23, 2009, at 8:16 AM, Mike wrote: > 802.11 clause 17 specifies a spectral mask must > be used which limits permitted distribution of > power across each channel. The requirement is > that the signal be attenuated by at least 30 dB > from its peak energy at ± 11MHz from the center > frequency. That is how the definition of a 22 > MHz wide channel evolved. This spectral mask > defines power output must be attenuated 50 dB ± 22MHz from frequency center. > > We all talk about there being 3 non overlapping > channels in 2.4. Guess what? The energy, > although attenuated goes beyond those 22 MHz. If > you narrow that spectral mask by half, your total > envelope power is now contained in a smaller > slice of spectrum. If you half it again, the > total benefit from having better signal to noise ratio is 6 dB. > > It doesn't matter if you park a new AP atop a > used frequency using 22 MHz channels or 10, or 5; > you still have contention. A 22 MHz wide channel > doesn't magically make it work better. But > neither do the fractional channels. Interference > is interference. What using fractional channels > lets you do is move farther away from a measured > center frequency already in use. When you do, > that 3 (or 6dB) gain in signal to noise will > allow a signal that may have been marginal at 20 MHz to work. > > I have some distant customers. Way out in the > sticks. Friends. I probably shouldn't have > installed them. I told them we would have little > fade margin. Their house looks over a hill at my > tower. I am using knife edge diffraction as a > propagation medium. I can get a -79 dBm signal, > on a good day. When atmospheric conditions > deteriorate, it may degrade to -83 and be > unusable. Since I put them on my horizontal, 5 > MHz sector, they have stayed associated 24/7 > every day. That 6 dB signal to noise benefit > gave me the fade margin that path needed. The > signal is still -79 and degrades to -83 on occasion. > > If you take all of the energy in a 20 MHz slice > and add it all up, intended signal, spurious > signals, and noise, there is a lot more energy > than in a 5 MHz slice adding up the same > factors. Uusing a ham radio metaphor, its like a > 500 Hz CW signal can make the path when a 3 kHz > SSB signal can't -- signal to noise; it can be your friend. > > Mike > > > > > At 12:19 AM 11/23/2009, you wrote: >> However, if the noise is "outside" of the 10mhz >> channel size (say 5mhz on each side), the 10mhz >> link will work perfect, while the 20mhz link will have loss and latency. >> >> With smaller channel sizes, you have LESS of a chance of having noise issues. >> >> Travis >> Microserv >> >> Jayson Baker wrote: >>> >>> Doesn't matter. If the interference is there, it's there. If your radio >>> has no where to spread out the signal and "avoid" that interference, you're >>> dead. >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Josh Luthman >>> <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com><j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Right but you have another 6db to get a stronger signal. >>>> >>>> On 11/22/09, Jayson Baker >>>> <mailto:jay...@spectrasurf.com><jay...@spectrasurf.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes, you get more signal, but you have much less spectrum for your spread >>>>> spectrum radio to operate in. >>>>> Spread spectrum doesn't always use the full 20MHz, it will skip around -- >>>>> that's the "spread" part of it. >>>>> So if you lower that to 5MHz, then you have virtually no "spread" and >>>>> anything that may be inside that 5MHz >>>>> will cause you a much more deteriorated performance than if it was in >>>>> >>>> >>>> your >>>> >>>>> >>>>> 20MHz. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Mike >>>>> <mailto:m...@aweiowa.com><m...@aweiowa.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I should think the opposite is true. Halve the signal, improve >>>>>> signal to noise 3 dB. Half it again and the improvement is 6 dB >>>>>> signal to noise. Should give you way more margin. My tests prove that >>>>>> out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> At 08:44 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> IIRC, 5MHz and 10MHz is more sucepstible to interference than 20MHz. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS < >>>>>>> <mailto:ilopezli...@sandboxitsolutions.com>ilopezli...@sandboxitsolutions.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm gonna have to set up the environment again. Only thing I cant >>>>>>>> simulate right now is distance. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As long as it wasnt some voodoo config setting that made it work >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> better, >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I might have to play with the Mobile NS2's settings for it to play >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> nicely. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OT: What is CCQ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Israel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Josh Luthman wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is very weird isn't it? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Vi is better the Emacs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/22/09, Mike <mailto:m...@aweiowa.com><m...@aweiowa.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Josh: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I thought that too. I have a handful of customers on a 5 MHz >>>>>>>>>> sector. Winbox shows this: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Emacs! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At 07:32 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I believe when you half the channels the rates also get halved - >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> from >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 54mbit >>>>>>>>>>> to 27mbit max (that is from 20mhz to 10mhz channels). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I also can't see why you're voice would be having problems in >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> half >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> or >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> quarter channels unless there is a software bug. It should only >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> improve >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> unless you're using all available bandwidth. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Josh Luthman >>>>>>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>>>>>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>>>>>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St >>>>>>>>>>> Suite 1337 >>>>>>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." >>>>>>>>>>> --- Albert Einstein >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Chuck >>>>>>>>>>> Hogg <<mailto:ch...@shelbybb.com>ch...@shelbybb.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> First, you should have a better signal than -70 at <5Miles away >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> with a >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 24dB/NS2 antenna and a B2HP/9dB omni. I get 65 or better with >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> a >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 19dB >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> panel. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget, 10MHz channel is 1/2 available bandwidth and 5MHz >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1/4 >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> available bandwidth. Really, you will get about 7-10MBit >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> aggregate >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (depending on how many customers) on a 5MHz channel connected >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> at >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 54MBit, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> which requires signals at -74dBm with a good fade margin >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> (10dB). >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the TX power is significantly less for 54MBps (23dBm) vs >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 24MBps(28dBm), >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> less than half. Likely, you are connecting at 48MBps or >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> 36Mbps, >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> which >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> at that rate your total available "real case" bandwidth is as >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> little >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 4MBps, while at 20MHz you are at 15+. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> A narrower channel should not affect your transmission, likely >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> will >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> signals better, roughly double (+3dBm) from 20-10, and double >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>> 10-5(total +6dBm). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> Chuck Hogg >>>>>>>>>>>> Shelby Broadband >>>>>>>>>>>> 502-722-9292 >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ch...@shelbybb.com>ch...@shelbybb.com >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.shelbybb.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org>wireless-boun...@wispa.org >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org>wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of <mailto:os10ru...@gmail.com>os10ru...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 6:20 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well next time definitely bring more food! Beef jerky and >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> granola >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> bars. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In my testing the narrower channels just made things slower. I >>>>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>>> testing in a pristine area where there was no other 5.8GHz >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> going >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> on. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From what I hear if the environment had been polluted >>>>>>>>>>>> performance >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> have actually gone up with the narrower channels. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From what I've read narrower channels doesn't effect packet >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> size >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> or >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> transport. But switching to WDS bridged does. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Its not in the field, but it is sitting here in my bedroom >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> looking >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> cool :). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking that using the 10/5MHz bandwidth required one >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> to >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> setup >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> something else. I'm not that familiar with the use of >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> half/quarter >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> rate >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> channels and how that affects the frame transport/packet size >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> etc,. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if it was environment based rather than >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'software/configuration' based. If I get some time this >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> evening >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> setup the gear again for more focused testing (Testing in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> field >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> volunteers who are cold and hungry dont usually respond well >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> testing >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plans). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -Israel >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:os10ru...@gmail.com>os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for kicks I'd try WDS bridged. Do you have control from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> where >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> you're at now? Is the equipment still set up? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @Travis Johnson - Yes Upgraded to newest firmware for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> two >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> units >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @os10rules - Nope, Fixed was simple AP and Mobile was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> Station >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> modes >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:os10ru...@gmail.com>os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Running WDS bridged? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey All, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did some field tests (for overseas volunteer project) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> with >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> some >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ubituiti gear; Nanostation2 & Bullet2HP. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One thing that was surprising was the performance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> degradation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> switching from 20MHz to 10MHz/5MHz. Our tests were Raw >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bandwidth >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tests(AirOS), Video (VLC UDP Stream), Voice (Trixbox G711 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Voice >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Call), >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and MTR (Latency, Jitter) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I still have data to collect and prepare a report for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> tech >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> team, but >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we did notice that when we switched to 10 or 5MHz >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> bandwidth >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> our >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> voice >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls was greatly degraded. Only one way; from Fixed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mobile I >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hear the Fixed station easily. Mobile to Fixed the voice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> choppy. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We started to get packet loss & massive jitter on 10MHz, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> going back >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to 20MHz made the links stable. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fixed Station: On a mountain side - HPOL 9dBI Omni >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Directional >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullet2HP @400mW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile Station: 8km away near large body of water - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullet2HP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> @400mW w/ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 24dBi Directional (HPOL Alignment) -70dbm RSSI >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas? We are planning on using 10MHz channels & >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> H-Pol >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> combat >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any future spectrum pollution and voice calls over this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> network >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> expected. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Israel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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