Eje, I always respect your opinons but let me play "devils advocate". I agree file-sharing is being forced down ISP's throats, so we have to deal with it. Many compare ISPs to utilities. I come from a background working for and with electric companies. If you overload their network you will be cut off and fined.
-RickG On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> wrote: > Not sure about that. Depending on whoms statistics you believe it can be > anywhere from about 5% to about 30%. Do we count the people used it in the > last x days. How many computers that have the software installed on them. > According to stats 2008 17% of US computers had Limewire installed on them. > uTorrent only 2.1%. But just because application is installed don't mean > it's used or frequently used. > Over 35% of internet traffic is fileshare application vs only 32% that is > web traffic. If we believe RIAA then the base and usage is way higher. I > wouldn't put much behind that 8% figure without knowing how they came to > that conclusion. > So fileshare usage in US is somewhere between 5% and 25% of all > computers/household more bandwidth is being used by fileshare traffic then > regular web traffic. > > Good QoS, traffic shaping and prioritizing means issue becoming less of an > issue or even a non issue same goes even without file sharing. Just because > it's a problem for the ISP we cannot just block it and pretend it don't > exists. It would be like a city claiming that we do not have a traffic > congestion system people just need to not drive as much or share a ride. We > don't need more traffic lanes or better traffic control. > Provide enough bandwidth on the AP, backhaul and upstream feed. Shape the > traffic for maximum user experience and everyone is happy. > > / Eje > > > -----Original Message----- > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On > Behalf Of Josh Luthman > Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 6:54 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents > > 8% of Swedes do peer to peer. I would expect the American population to > have a smaller figure. Regardless, can we not agree it's a small figure? > > Josh Luthman > Office: 937-552-2340 > Direct: 937-552-2343 > 1100 Wayne St > Suite 1337 > Troy, OH 45373 > > "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue > that counts." > --- Winston Churchill > > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Philip Dorr > <wirel...@judgementgaming.com>wrote: > >> May not be mainstream, but is a decent percentage. >> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7978853.stm >> >> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Josh Luthman >> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: >> > I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the >> problem. >> > >> > I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many >> > of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of >> > these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? >> > >> > I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat >> > torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the >> > majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web >> > which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live >> > in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this >> > list. >> > >> > On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> wrote: >> >> So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. >> So no >> >> need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are >> >> insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. >> >> It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire > you >> >> name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the >> link >> >> torrent file download and download client is launched. >> >> >> >> You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do > it >> the >> >> hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I >> downloaded >> >> been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast >> >> mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter >> how >> >> new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source >> >> community by seeding the distro. >> >> I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and >> well >> >> honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a "useful" mirror. >> >> >> >> And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents >> >> providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters >> themselves. >> >> You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I >> gave >> >> it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you >> >> prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then >> are >> >> we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or >> connection >> >> limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. >> >> Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and >> with >> >> every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will >> continue >> >> to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option >> IMHO. >> >> Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If >> >> someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then >> downloaded >> >> the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't >> going >> >> to be happy. >> >> >> >> Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data >> storage >> >> service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to >> >> figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to >> be >> >> happy. >> >> >> >> Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate >> Bay. >> >> So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of >> >> downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). >> >> >> >> And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is >> ready >> >> to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as >> you >> >> download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of > the >> >> times faster downloads..... >> >> >> >> / Eje >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >> >> Behalf Of Josh Luthman >> >> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM >> >> To: WISPA General List >> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents >> >> >> >> I never said it was good to block it. I think blocking it is bad. Not >> sure >> >> where you got that impression. My stance is if you can support it, >> charge >> >> them for it. If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop > it >> >> with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely. >> >> >> >> Once again... >> >> >> >> I have played Wow. I played it last week for the free trial. Instead >> of >> >> waiting all night for the torrent I went to one of the mirrors I posted >> and >> >> got the patch in minutes instead of hours. Blizzard's other games - >> >> Starcraft, Warcraft 2 and 3, Diablo 1 and 2 - are all HTTP only. The >> only >> >> Blizzard files obtained via torrent are the Wow patches and hi def >> >> trailers/movies - < >> >> http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&tag=patches> >> >> >> >> Every *nix distro I've obtained (Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos, DSL, Knoppix, >> >> Gentoo, maybe more) I've done HTTP. >> >> >> >> Who cares if Nine Inch Nails distributes their music via torrent? No >> one >> >> uses it anyways - they all use Napster/Kazaa/Limewire. >> >> >> >> So why choose torrent over HTTP? I just don't see Grandma Bonnie >> Emailer or >> >> Little Timmy MP3er or Greasy Gary Gamer (except that one half Wow >> example) >> >> using torrents. I just don't see the average user installing utorrent >> to >> >> get their blog videos, mp3s or latest content, it's easier to click one >> link >> >> in the browser, save it and use it. >> >> >> >> I also want to mention that 300GB/mo transfer at home is not high at >> all. >> >> >> >> Josh Luthman >> >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> >> 1100 Wayne St >> >> Suite 1337 >> >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> >> >> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to >> continue >> >> that counts." >> >> --- Winston Churchill >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Have you ever played wow and see how their updates are released and >> >>> distributed? (I'm not a wow player but I had to deal with it). >> Basically >> >>> you >> >>> start the game, login to your character and you get a notice update is >> >>> available and you say ok and it starts downloading and update starts >> once >> >>> it >> >>> is done. >> >>> >> >>> ISO distro downloads. Instead of hunting for a mirror site that have >> fast >> >>> speeds and testing out multiple of them before finding on that give > you >> >>> good >> >>> speed. All I do is select one torrent file and start a torrent >> download. >> >>> ISO >> >>> downloaded in no time. Faster easier and less issues. Especially when >> you >> >>> deal with a big distro version that is DVD format and newly released. >> >>> >> >>> Other adoptions.... >> >>> BitTorrent Inc has a number of licenses from Hollywood for > distributing >> >>> popular content with their torrent system >> >>> Sub Pop Records reelases tracks and videos to distribute its 1000+ >> albums. >> >>> The band Ween as an example uses the website Browntracker.net to >> >> distribute >> >>> hundreds of video recordings of live shows. >> >>> Babyshambles, The Libertines has extensively used torrents to >> distribute >> >>> hundreds of demos and live videos. >> >>> Nine Inch Nails frequently distribute albums via BitTorrent >> >>> Many new PodCasting software start to integrate BitTorrent to help >> >>> broadcasters deal with download demands of their MP3 "radio" programs. >> For >> >>> example Juice and Miro support automatic processing of .torrent files >> from >> >>> RSS feeds. The same thing with uTurrent. >> >>> Then you have Mininova tracker which is a Content Distributor only >> >> platform >> >>> to allow copyright holders especially smaller groups to distribute >> their >> >>> music, videos etc. >> >>> In addition DGM Live! Purchass are provided via BitTorrent >> >>> >> >>> CBC was the first public broadcaster in NA to make a full show >> available >> >>> for >> >>> download using BitTorrent >> >>> NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) has since March 08 >> experimented >> >>> with bittorrent distribution for selected material which NRK owns all >> >>> royalties (they use Miro) (http://nrkbeta.no/bittorrent/) >> >>> VPRO (Dutch broadcaster) released some documentaries under the > Creative >> >>> Commons license using Mininova. >> >>> >> >>> Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is equipped with a built-in >> BitTorrent >> >>> support >> >>> Bog Torrent has a bittorent track to enable bloggers to host a tracker >> on >> >>> their site to allow visitors to download a stub loader so they can >> access >> >>> picture, blog, music, videos posted by the blogger. >> >>> >> >>> As mentioned Blizzard Entertainment (especially Wow) uses built in >> >>> BitTorrent in their software for updates, patches, maps etc downloads. >> >> Some >> >>> of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and >> >> distribute >> >>> of a traditional server because once a large update is released you >> will >> >>> have tens of thousands people that will download said update within >> hours. >> >>> Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and >> >>> download >> >>> a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds. >> >>> >> >>> Many open source and free software projects encourage BitTorrent >> basically >> >>> to increase availability and to reduce load on their own servers > mostly >> >>> when >> >>> a new software release just been released. When you have hundreds or >> >>> thousands people that want to download latest dist. Personally I don't >> >> mind >> >>> to help seed a Fedora torrent because it helps me out when a new >> version >> >> is >> >>> available as well. >> >>> >> >>> So enough legal usages and samples for you now to still think it's ok >> to >> >>> totally block or throttle BitTorrent to nothingness? Your customers > pay >> >> you >> >>> to get access to data what they access is after all really not your >> >>> responsibility. Yours is to provide them with access and ensure that >> they >> >>> have good access and get what they pay for which means control and >> >> maintain >> >>> network stability and speed by managing your traffic to a level that > is >> >>> good >> >>> for everyone. The more people that blatantly block things and >> especially >> >>> when there is no other highspeed options will cause the FCC/government >> to >> >>> step in and enforce how things need to be ran and what you are allowed >> or >> >>> especially not allowed to do. But of course if your clean about it and >> >> very >> >>> upfront about it then it might be a different matter. But if your hide >> it >> >>> in >> >>> a AUP or TOS in the fine print especially if you don't make the user >> sign >> >>> it >> >>> but states usage of internet means acceptance of the terms you are in >> deep >> >>> waters. >> >>> I personally allow any fileshare application on my network. I do >> throttle >> >>> it >> >>> and only allow a max of 60% of my available bandwidth for fileshare >> apps >> >>> shared over all my customers and on top of it any interactive data >> >>> transfers >> >>> is prioritized (dns, mail, http, messengers to mention a few) above >> >>> fileshare. The advantage to this is that my customer can still > download >> >>> things over fileshare and it will not kill their other usage nor my >> >>> available bandwidth either. Works nice for them and for me and > everyone >> is >> >>> happy. >> >>> >> >>> / Eje >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >> On >> >>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman >> >>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:44 AM >> >>> To: WISPA General List >> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents >> >>> >> >>> I'm not saying there aren't a lot of legal torrents but I'm saying the >> >>> majority are illegal and that torrent is by no means a mainstream >> protocol >> >>> that needs to be supported. >> >>> >> >>> Wow patches? Here's some HTTP mirrors... >> >>> http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_mirrors >> >>> >> >>> MT updates? Click the link above it that is HTTP for the file you >> need. >> >>> >> >>> *nix distros? Click the HTTP links above or below it. >> >>> >> >>> These are the 3 examples I see time and time again and I always ask, >> >>> without >> >>> answer, for other examples. >> >>> >> >>> Josh Luthman >> >>> Office: 937-552-2340 >> >>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> >>> 1100 Wayne St >> >>> Suite 1337 >> >>> Troy, OH 45373 >> >>> >> >>> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to >> continue >> >>> that counts." >> >>> --- Winston Churchill >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:41 AM, Philip Dorr >> >>> <wirel...@judgementgaming.com>wrote: >> >>> >> >>> > I get my Ubuntu ISOs via Bittorrent. >> >>> > >> >>> > We block the customer, until they stop, if it is causing problems >> with >> >>> > the AP they are on. We have only had problems on our 2.4Ghz and >> >>> > sometimes 900Mhz APs. We have not yet had any problems on our 5.8Ghz >> >>> > APs. >> >>> > >> >>> > On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Josh Luthman >> >>> > <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: >> >>> > > Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik. What else that you would > go >> >>> > > under oath saying you torrented? >> >>> > > >> >>> > > On 2/14/10, Robert West <robert.w...@just-micro.com> wrote: >> >>> > >> We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing. But >> >>> "allowing" >> >>> > >> means no 24 hour downloading. >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via >> >>> torrent. >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> Bob- >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> > >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto: >> wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >> >>> On >> >>> > >> Behalf Of RickG >> >>> > >> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM >> >>> > >> To: WISPA General List >> >>> > >> Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> Even though our AUP & TOS does not allow it, I have a customer >> >>> > >> demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. >> Am I >> >>> > >> being over >> >>> > >> zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows >> them? >> >>> > >> -RickG >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> > >> ---- >> >>> > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> >>> > >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> > >> ---- >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> >>> > >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> ---- >> >>> > >> WISPA Wants You! 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