Yes you can if you want to. / Eje
-----Original Message----- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 9:18 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents I have a MT firewall. Can you run Butch's QOS on MT APs & CPE? On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Josh Luthman <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: > Not sure of the capabilities of StarOS but Ubnt and Tranzeo can't help you > limit connections. You may need to invest in some Routerboards or something > more expensive. > > You said you had Butch's QOS application - do you already have some Mikrotik > stuff in place? > > Josh Luthman > Office: 937-552-2340 > Direct: 937-552-2343 > 1100 Wayne St > Suite 1337 > Troy, OH 45373 > > Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue > that counts. > --- Winston Churchill > > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:58 PM, RickG <rgunder...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I agree but you cant fix a large network overnight. Especially in this >> weather! >> >> Thanks for your input! >> >> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> >> wrote: >> > Appropriate bandwidth bandwidth shaping with QoS and prioritization and >> more >> > than likely you don't to tell anyone (well still very possible) but at >> least >> > you will not get complains from other users on the network that it's >> slow. >> > The good thing with fileshare it's not a "interactive" system that >> require a >> > certain minimum bandwidth such as streaming audio or video. File share >> > bandwidth usage is easy to handle. >> > Streaming audio/video can only be "fixed" by providing the user with more >> > "dedicated" bandwidth so less overselling. >> > >> > / Eje >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >> > Behalf Of RickG >> > Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:44 PM >> > To: WISPA General List >> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents >> > >> > Fortunately, its not common on my network ether. Just one or two a >> > month have to be told. >> > >> > On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Josh Luthman >> > <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: >> >> I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the >> > problem. >> >> >> >> I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many >> >> of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of >> >> these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? >> >> >> >> I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat >> >> torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the >> >> majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web >> >> which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live >> >> in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this >> >> list. >> >> >> >> On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> wrote: >> >>> So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. >> So >> > no >> >>> need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are >> >>> insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. >> >>> It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire >> you >> >>> name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the >> > link >> >>> torrent file download and download client is launched. >> >>> >> >>> You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do >> it >> > the >> >>> hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I >> > downloaded >> >>> been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast >> >>> mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter >> > how >> >>> new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source >> >>> community by seeding the distro. >> >>> I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and >> > well >> >>> honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a "useful" mirror. >> >>> >> >>> And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents >> >>> providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters >> themselves. >> >>> You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I >> > gave >> >>> it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you >> >>> prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then >> > are >> >>> we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or >> > connection >> >>> limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. >> >>> Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and >> > with >> >>> every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will >> > continue >> >>> to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option >> IMHO. >> >>> Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If >> >>> someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then >> > downloaded >> >>> the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't >> > going >> >>> to be happy. >> >>> >> >>> Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data >> > storage >> >>> service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to >> >>> figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to >> > be >> >>> happy. >> >>> >> >>> Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate >> > Bay. >> >>> So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of >> >>> downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). >> >>> >> >>> And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is >> > ready >> >>> to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as >> you >> >>> download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of >> the >> >>> times faster downloads..... >> >>> >> >>> / Eje >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >> On >> >>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman >> >>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM >> >>> To: WISPA General List >> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents >> >>> >> >>> I never said it was good to block it. I think blocking it is bad. Not >> > sure >> >>> where you got that impression. My stance is if you can support it, >> > charge >> >>> them for it. If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop >> it >> >>> with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely. >> >>> >> >>> Once again... >> >>> >> >>> I have played Wow. I played it last week for the free trial. Instead >> of >> >>> waiting all night for the torrent I went to one of the mirrors I posted >> > and >> >>> got the patch in minutes instead of hours. Blizzard's other games - >> >>> Starcraft, Warcraft 2 and 3, Diablo 1 and 2 - are all HTTP only. The >> > only >> >>> Blizzard files obtained via torrent are the Wow patches and hi def >> >>> trailers/movies - < >> >>> http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&tag=patches> >> >>> >> >>> Every *nix distro I've obtained (Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos, DSL, Knoppix, >> >>> Gentoo, maybe more) I've done HTTP. >> >>> >> >>> Who cares if Nine Inch Nails distributes their music via torrent? No >> one >> >>> uses it anyways - they all use Napster/Kazaa/Limewire. >> >>> >> >>> So why choose torrent over HTTP? I just don't see Grandma Bonnie >> Emailer >> > or >> >>> Little Timmy MP3er or Greasy Gary Gamer (except that one half Wow >> > example) >> >>> using torrents. I just don't see the average user installing utorrent >> to >> >>> get their blog videos, mp3s or latest content, it's easier to click one >> > link >> >>> in the browser, save it and use it. >> >>> >> >>> I also want to mention that 300GB/mo transfer at home is not high at >> all. >> >>> >> >>> Josh Luthman >> >>> Office: 937-552-2340 >> >>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> >>> 1100 Wayne St >> >>> Suite 1337 >> >>> Troy, OH 45373 >> >>> >> >>> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to >> > continue >> >>> that counts." >> >>> --- Winston Churchill >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> >> > wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Have you ever played wow and see how their updates are released and >> >>>> distributed? (I'm not a wow player but I had to deal with it). >> Basically >> >>>> you >> >>>> start the game, login to your character and you get a notice update is >> >>>> available and you say ok and it starts downloading and update starts >> > once >> >>>> it >> >>>> is done. >> >>>> >> >>>> ISO distro downloads. Instead of hunting for a mirror site that have >> > fast >> >>>> speeds and testing out multiple of them before finding on that give >> you >> >>>> good >> >>>> speed. All I do is select one torrent file and start a torrent >> download. >> >>>> ISO >> >>>> downloaded in no time. Faster easier and less issues. Especially when >> > you >> >>>> deal with a big distro version that is DVD format and newly released. >> >>>> >> >>>> Other adoptions.... >> >>>> BitTorrent Inc has a number of licenses from Hollywood for >> distributing >> >>>> popular content with their torrent system >> >>>> Sub Pop Records reelases tracks and videos to distribute its 1000+ >> > albums. >> >>>> The band Ween as an example uses the website Browntracker.net to >> >>> distribute >> >>>> hundreds of video recordings of live shows. >> >>>> Babyshambles, The Libertines has extensively used torrents to >> distribute >> >>>> hundreds of demos and live videos. >> >>>> Nine Inch Nails frequently distribute albums via BitTorrent >> >>>> Many new PodCasting software start to integrate BitTorrent to help >> >>>> broadcasters deal with download demands of their MP3 "radio" programs. >> > For >> >>>> example Juice and Miro support automatic processing of .torrent files >> > from >> >>>> RSS feeds. The same thing with uTurrent. >> >>>> Then you have Mininova tracker which is a Content Distributor only >> >>> platform >> >>>> to allow copyright holders especially smaller groups to distribute >> their >> >>>> music, videos etc. >> >>>> In addition DGM Live! Purchass are provided via BitTorrent >> >>>> >> >>>> CBC was the first public broadcaster in NA to make a full show >> available >> >>>> for >> >>>> download using BitTorrent >> >>>> NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) has since March 08 >> experimented >> >>>> with bittorrent distribution for selected material which NRK owns all >> >>>> royalties (they use Miro) (http://nrkbeta.no/bittorrent/) >> >>>> VPRO (Dutch broadcaster) released some documentaries under the >> Creative >> >>>> Commons license using Mininova. >> >>>> >> >>>> Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is equipped with a built-in >> > BitTorrent >> >>>> support >> >>>> Bog Torrent has a bittorent track to enable bloggers to host a tracker >> > on >> >>>> their site to allow visitors to download a stub loader so they can >> > access >> >>>> picture, blog, music, videos posted by the blogger. >> >>>> >> >>>> As mentioned Blizzard Entertainment (especially Wow) uses built in >> >>>> BitTorrent in their software for updates, patches, maps etc downloads. >> >>> Some >> >>>> of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and >> >>> distribute >> >>>> of a traditional server because once a large update is released you >> will >> >>>> have tens of thousands people that will download said update within >> > hours. >> >>>> Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and >> >>>> download >> >>>> a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds. >> >>>> >> >>>> Many open source and free software projects encourage BitTorrent >> > basically >> >>>> to increase availability and to reduce load on their own servers >> mostly >> >>>> when >> >>>> a new software release just been released. When you have hundreds or >> >>>> thousands people that want to download latest dist. Personally I don't >> >>> mind >> >>>> to help seed a Fedora torrent because it helps me out when a new >> version >> >>> is >> >>>> available as well. >> >>>> >> >>>> So enough legal usages and samples for you now to still think it's ok >> to >> >>>> totally block or throttle BitTorrent to nothingness? Your customers >> pay >> >>> you >> >>>> to get access to data what they access is after all really not your >> >>>> responsibility. Yours is to provide them with access and ensure that >> > they >> >>>> have good access and get what they pay for which means control and >> >>> maintain >> >>>> network stability and speed by managing your traffic to a level that >> is >> >>>> good >> >>>> for everyone. The more people that blatantly block things and >> especially >> >>>> when there is no other highspeed options will cause the FCC/government >> > to >> >>>> step in and enforce how things need to be ran and what you are allowed >> > or >> >>>> especially not allowed to do. But of course if your clean about it and >> >>> very >> >>>> upfront about it then it might be a different matter. But if your hide >> > it >> >>>> in >> >>>> a AUP or TOS in the fine print especially if you don't make the user >> > sign >> >>>> it >> >>>> but states usage of internet means acceptance of the terms you are in >> > deep >> >>>> waters. >> >>>> I personally allow any fileshare application on my network. I do >> > throttle >> >>>> it >> >>>> and only allow a max of 60% of my available bandwidth for fileshare >> apps >> >>>> shared over all my customers and on top of it any interactive data >> >>>> transfers >> >>>> is prioritized (dns, mail, http, messengers to mention a few) above >> >>>> fileshare. The advantage to this is that my customer can still >> download >> >>>> things over fileshare and it will not kill their other usage nor my >> >>>> available bandwidth either. Works nice for them and for me and >> everyone >> > is >> >>>> happy. >> >>>> >> >>>> / Eje >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >> On >> >>>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman >> >>>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:44 AM >> >>>> To: WISPA General List >> >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm not saying there aren't a lot of legal torrents but I'm saying the >> >>>> majority are illegal and that torrent is by no means a mainstream >> > protocol >> >>>> that needs to be supported. >> >>>> >> >>>> Wow patches? Here's some HTTP mirrors... >> >>>> http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_mirrors >> >>>> >> >>>> MT updates? Click the link above it that is HTTP for the file you >> need. >> >>>> >> >>>> *nix distros? Click the HTTP links above or below it. >> >>>> >> >>>> These are the 3 examples I see time and time again and I always ask, >> >>>> without >> >>>> answer, for other examples. >> >>>> >> >>>> Josh Luthman >> >>>> Office: 937-552-2340 >> >>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> >>>> 1100 Wayne St >> >>>> Suite 1337 >> >>>> Troy, OH 45373 >> >>>> >> >>>> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to >> > continue >> >>>> that counts." >> >>>> --- Winston Churchill >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:41 AM, Philip Dorr >> >>>> <wirel...@judgementgaming.com>wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> > I get my Ubuntu ISOs via Bittorrent. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > We block the customer, until they stop, if it is causing problems >> with >> >>>> > the AP they are on. We have only had problems on our 2.4Ghz and >> >>>> > sometimes 900Mhz APs. We have not yet had any problems on our 5.8Ghz >> >>>> > APs. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Josh Luthman >> >>>> > <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: >> >>>> > > Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik. What else that you would >> go >> >>>> > > under oath saying you torrented? >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > On 2/14/10, Robert West <robert.w...@just-micro.com> wrote: >> >>>> > >> We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing. But >> >>>> "allowing" >> >>>> > >> means no 24 hour downloading. >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via >> >>>> torrent. >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> Bob- >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> > >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org >> > [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >> >>>> On >> >>>> > >> Behalf Of RickG >> >>>> > >> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM >> >>>> > >> To: WISPA General List >> >>>> > >> Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> Even though our AUP & TOS does not allow it, I have a customer >> >>>> > >> demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. >> Am >> > I >> >>>> > >> being over >> >>>> > >> zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows >> > them? >> >>>> > >> -RickG >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>> > >> ---- >> >>>> > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> >>>> > >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>> > >> ---- >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> >>>> > >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>> ---- >> >>>> > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> >>>> > >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>> ---- >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> >>>> > >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > -- >> >>>> > > Josh Luthman >> >>>> > > Office: 937-552-2340 >> >>>> > > Direct: 937-552-2343 >> >>>> > > 1100 Wayne St >> >>>> > > Suite 1337 >> >>>> > > Troy, OH 45373 >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to >> >>>> > > continue that counts." >> >>>> > > --- Winston Churchill >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>> ---- >> >>>> > > WISPA Wants You! 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