"in the contract the people sign for service it clearly states over usage is not permitted, server setup is not permitted and include file sharing out to the internet."
If all providers did this, then your support for bittorrent is fruitless. It would not work. It depends on people uploading(out to the internet) the "bits" to function. You are supporting the concept but not supporting the application on your network. Our TOS addresses servers also, but I still allow the torrents to work, but at much slower than normal traffic. Scottie ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Eje Gustafsson" <e...@wisp-router.com> Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 21:23:48 -0600 >Absolutely. Why we ourselves don't sell our service as a unlimited service. >Nowhere do we ever say unlimited in our marketing material or other >material, and in the contract the people sign for service it clearly states >over usage is not permitted, server setup is not permitted and include file >sharing out to the internet. There is even on the last page a table where >all important information such as bandwidth allotment, # of e-mail accounts, >monthly cap limits as well charge per GB over usage is denoted by hand >depending on service level purchased. >We say we will charge you $5/GB over your monthly 10GB limit. But we have >never charged this at this point. We have people going way over 10GB but >they have not created any issues on our network. > >No don't believe in unlimited internet and will not be like the mobile >broadband providers calling their service unlimited but in small print you >can read it's not unlimited and that they can charge or cancel your service >for over usage. But reason they call it unlimited is because they have their >limited plans that offer say 500MB or 5GB then their unlimited (which really >isn't unlimited) I am still amazed that FTC have not slapped them on their >hands for this IMO false advertisement. But I guess it comes down to it >affects so very few people that for most people it really seems "unlimited". > >/ Eje > >-----Original Message----- >From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >Behalf Of RickG >Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:56 PM >To: WISPA General List >Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents > >Eje, > >I always respect your opinons but let me play "devils advocate". I >agree file-sharing is being forced down ISP's throats, so we have to >deal with it. Many compare ISPs to utilities. I come from a background >working for and with electric companies. If you overload their network >you will be cut off and fined. > >-RickG > >On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> wrote: >> Not sure about that. Depending on whoms statistics you believe it can be >> anywhere from about 5% to about 30%. Do we count the people used it in the >> last x days. How many computers that have the software installed on them. >> According to stats 2008 17% of US computers had Limewire installed on >them. >> uTorrent only 2.1%. But just because application is installed don't mean >> it's used or frequently used. >> Over 35% of internet traffic is fileshare application vs only 32% that is >> web traffic. If we believe RIAA then the base and usage is way higher. I >> wouldn't put much behind that 8% figure without knowing how they came to >> that conclusion. >> So fileshare usage in US is somewhere between 5% and 25% of all >> computers/household more bandwidth is being used by fileshare traffic then >> regular web traffic. >> >> Good QoS, traffic shaping and prioritizing means issue becoming less of an >> issue or even a non issue same goes even without file sharing. Just >because >> it's a problem for the ISP we cannot just block it and pretend it don't >> exists. It would be like a city claiming that we do not have a traffic >> congestion system people just need to not drive as much or share a ride. >We >> don't need more traffic lanes or better traffic control. >> Provide enough bandwidth on the AP, backhaul and upstream feed. Shape the >> traffic for maximum user experience and everyone is happy. >> >> / Eje >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >> Behalf Of Josh Luthman >> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 6:54 PM >> To: WISPA General List >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents >> >> 8% of Swedes do peer to peer. I would expect the American population to >> have a smaller figure. Regardless, can we not agree it's a small figure? >> >> Josh Luthman >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> 1100 Wayne St >> Suite 1337 >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue >> that counts." >> --- Winston Churchill >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Philip Dorr >> <wirel...@judgementgaming.com>wrote: >> >>> May not be mainstream, but is a decent percentage. >>> >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7978853.stm >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Josh Luthman >>> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: >>> > I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the >>> problem. >>> > >>> > I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many >>> > of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of >>> > these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? >>> > >>> > I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat >>> > torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the >>> > majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web >>> > which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live >>> > in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this >>> > list. >>> > >>> > On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> wrote: >>> >> So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. >>> So no >>> >> need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are >>> >> insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. >>> >> It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire >> you >>> >> name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the >>> link >>> >> torrent file download and download client is launched. >>> >> >>> >> You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do >> it >>> the >>> >> hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I >>> downloaded >>> >> been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one >fast >>> >> mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no >matter >>> how >>> >> new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source >>> >> community by seeding the distro. >>> >> I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and >>> well >>> >> honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a "useful" mirror. >>> >> >>> >> And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents >>> >> providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters >>> themselves. >>> >> You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I >>> gave >>> >> it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and >you >>> >> prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then >>> are >>> >> we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or >>> connection >>> >> limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. >>> >> Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and >>> with >>> >> every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will >>> continue >>> >> to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option >>> IMHO. >>> >> Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If >>> >> someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then >>> downloaded >>> >> the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't >>> going >>> >> to be happy. >>> >> >>> >> Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data >>> storage >>> >> service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to >>> >> figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going >to >>> be >>> >> happy. >>> >> >>> >> Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The >Pirate >>> Bay. >>> >> So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of >>> >> downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). >>> >> >>> >> And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is >>> ready >>> >> to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as >>> you >>> >> download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of >> the >>> >> times faster downloads..... >>> >> >>> >> / Eje >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >On >>> >> Behalf Of Josh Luthman >>> >> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM >>> >> To: WISPA General List >>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents >>> >> >>> >> I never said it was good to block it. I think blocking it is bad. > Not >>> sure >>> >> where you got that impression. My stance is if you can support it, >>> charge >>> >> them for it. If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop >> it >>> >> with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely. >>> >> >>> >> Once again... >>> >> >>> >> I have played Wow. I played it last week for the free trial. Instead >>> of >>> >> waiting all night for the torrent I went to one of the mirrors I >posted >>> and >>> >> got the patch in minutes instead of hours. Blizzard's other games - >>> >> Starcraft, Warcraft 2 and 3, Diablo 1 and 2 - are all HTTP only. The >>> only >>> >> Blizzard files obtained via torrent are the Wow patches and hi def >>> >> trailers/movies - < >>> >> http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&tag=patches> >>> >> >>> >> Every *nix distro I've obtained (Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos, DSL, Knoppix, >>> >> Gentoo, maybe more) I've done HTTP. >>> >> >>> >> Who cares if Nine Inch Nails distributes their music via torrent? No >>> one >>> >> uses it anyways - they all use Napster/Kazaa/Limewire. >>> >> >>> >> So why choose torrent over HTTP? I just don't see Grandma Bonnie >>> Emailer or >>> >> Little Timmy MP3er or Greasy Gary Gamer (except that one half Wow >>> example) >>> >> using torrents. I just don't see the average user installing utorrent >>> to >>> >> get their blog videos, mp3s or latest content, it's easier to click >one >>> link >>> >> in the browser, save it and use it. >>> >> >>> >> I also want to mention that 300GB/mo transfer at home is not high at >>> all. >>> >> >>> >> Josh Luthman >>> >> Office: 937-552-2340 >>> >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>> >> 1100 Wayne St >>> >> Suite 1337 >>> >> Troy, OH 45373 >>> >> >>> >> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to >>> continue >>> >> that counts." >>> >> --- Winston Churchill >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Have you ever played wow and see how their updates are released and >>> >>> distributed? (I'm not a wow player but I had to deal with it). >>> Basically >>> >>> you >>> >>> start the game, login to your character and you get a notice update >is >>> >>> available and you say ok and it starts downloading and update starts >>> once >>> >>> it >>> >>> is done. >>> >>> >>> >>> ISO distro downloads. Instead of hunting for a mirror site that have >>> fast >>> >>> speeds and testing out multiple of them before finding on that give >> you >>> >>> good >>> >>> speed. All I do is select one torrent file and start a torrent >>> download. >>> >>> ISO >>> >>> downloaded in no time. Faster easier and less issues. Especially when >>> you >>> >>> deal with a big distro version that is DVD format and newly released. >>> >>> >>> >>> Other adoptions.... >>> >>> BitTorrent Inc has a number of licenses from Hollywood for >> distributing >>> >>> popular content with their torrent system >>> >>> Sub Pop Records reelases tracks and videos to distribute its 1000+ >>> albums. >>> >>> The band Ween as an example uses the website Browntracker.net to >>> >> distribute >>> >>> hundreds of video recordings of live shows. >>> >>> Babyshambles, The Libertines has extensively used torrents to >>> distribute >>> >>> hundreds of demos and live videos. >>> >>> Nine Inch Nails frequently distribute albums via BitTorrent >>> >>> Many new PodCasting software start to integrate BitTorrent to help >>> >>> broadcasters deal with download demands of their MP3 "radio" >programs. >>> For >>> >>> example Juice and Miro support automatic processing of .torrent files >>> from >>> >>> RSS feeds. The same thing with uTurrent. >>> >>> Then you have Mininova tracker which is a Content Distributor only >>> >> platform >>> >>> to allow copyright holders especially smaller groups to distribute >>> their >>> >>> music, videos etc. >>> >>> In addition DGM Live! Purchass are provided via BitTorrent >>> >>> >>> >>> CBC was the first public broadcaster in NA to make a full show >>> available >>> >>> for >>> >>> download using BitTorrent >>> >>> NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) has since March 08 >>> experimented >>> >>> with bittorrent distribution for selected material which NRK owns all >>> >>> royalties (they use Miro) (http://nrkbeta.no/bittorrent/) >>> >>> VPRO (Dutch broadcaster) released some documentaries under the >> Creative >>> >>> Commons license using Mininova. >>> >>> >>> >>> Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is equipped with a built-in >>> BitTorrent >>> >>> support >>> >>> Bog Torrent has a bittorent track to enable bloggers to host a >tracker >>> on >>> >>> their site to allow visitors to download a stub loader so they can >>> access >>> >>> picture, blog, music, videos posted by the blogger. >>> >>> >>> >>> As mentioned Blizzard Entertainment (especially Wow) uses built in >>> >>> BitTorrent in their software for updates, patches, maps etc >downloads. >>> >> Some >>> >>> of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and >>> >> distribute >>> >>> of a traditional server because once a large update is released you >>> will >>> >>> have tens of thousands people that will download said update within >>> hours. >>> >>> Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and >>> >>> download >>> >>> a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds. >>> >>> >>> >>> Many open source and free software projects encourage BitTorrent >>> basically >>> >>> to increase availability and to reduce load on their own servers >> mostly >>> >>> when >>> >>> a new software release just been released. When you have hundreds or >>> >>> thousands people that want to download latest dist. Personally I >don't >>> >> mind >>> >>> to help seed a Fedora torrent because it helps me out when a new >>> version >>> >> is >>> >>> available as well. >>> >>> >>> >>> So enough legal usages and samples for you now to still think it's ok >>> to >>> >>> totally block or throttle BitTorrent to nothingness? Your customers >> pay >>> >> you >>> >>> to get access to data what they access is after all really not your >>> >>> responsibility. Yours is to provide them with access and ensure that >>> they >>> >>> have good access and get what they pay for which means control and >>> >> maintain >>> >>> network stability and speed by managing your traffic to a level that >> is >>> >>> good >>> >>> for everyone. The more people that blatantly block things and >>> especially >>> >>> when there is no other highspeed options will cause the >FCC/government >>> to >>> >>> step in and enforce how things need to be ran and what you are >allowed >>> or >>> >>> especially not allowed to do. But of course if your clean about it >and >>> >> very >>> >>> upfront about it then it might be a different matter. But if your >hide >>> it >>> >>> in >>> >>> a AUP or TOS in the fine print especially if you don't make the user >>> sign >>> >>> it >>> >>> but states usage of internet means acceptance of the terms you are in >>> deep >>> >>> waters. >>> >>> I personally allow any fileshare application on my network. I do >>> throttle >>> >>> it >>> >>> and only allow a max of 60% of my available bandwidth for fileshare >>> apps >>> >>> shared over all my customers and on top of it any interactive data >>> >>> transfers >>> >>> is prioritized (dns, mail, http, messengers to mention a few) above >>> >>> fileshare. The advantage to this is that my customer can still >> download >>> >>> things over fileshare and it will not kill their other usage nor my >>> >>> available bandwidth either. Works nice for them and for me and >> everyone >>> is >>> >>> happy. >>> >>> >>> >>> / Eje >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>> On >>> >>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:44 AM >>> >>> To: WISPA General List >>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not saying there aren't a lot of legal torrents but I'm saying >the >>> >>> majority are illegal and that torrent is by no means a mainstream >>> protocol >>> >>> that needs to be supported. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wow patches? Here's some HTTP mirrors... >>> >>> http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_mirrors >>> >>> >>> >>> MT updates? Click the link above it that is HTTP for the file you >>> need. >>> >>> >>> >>> *nix distros? Click the HTTP links above or below it. >>> >>> >>> >>> These are the 3 examples I see time and time again and I always ask, >>> >>> without >>> >>> answer, for other examples. >>> >>> >>> >>> Josh Luthman >>> >>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>> >>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>> >>> 1100 Wayne St >>> >>> Suite 1337 >>> >>> Troy, OH 45373 >>> >>> >>> >>> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to >>> continue >>> >>> that counts." >>> >>> --- Winston Churchill >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:41 AM, Philip Dorr >>> >>> <wirel...@judgementgaming.com>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> > I get my Ubuntu ISOs via Bittorrent. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > We block the customer, until they stop, if it is causing problems >>> with >>> >>> > the AP they are on. We have only had problems on our 2.4Ghz and >>> >>> > sometimes 900Mhz APs. We have not yet had any problems on our >5.8Ghz >>> >>> > APs. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Josh Luthman >>> >>> > <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: >>> >>> > > Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik. What else that you would >> go >>> >>> > > under oath saying you torrented? >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > On 2/14/10, Robert West <robert.w...@just-micro.com> wrote: >>> >>> > >> We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing. But >>> >>> "allowing" >>> >>> > >> means no 24 hour downloading. >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via >>> >>> torrent. >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> Bob- >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> > >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto: >>> wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>> >>> On >>> >>> > >> Behalf Of RickG >>> >>> > >> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM >>> >>> > >> To: WISPA General List >>> >>> > >> Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> Even though our AUP & TOS does not allow it, I have a customer >>> >>> > >> demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. >>> Am I >>> >>> > >> being over >>> >>> > >> zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows >>> them? >>> >>> > >> -RickG >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> > >> ---- >>> >>> > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>> >>> > >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> > >> ---- >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>> >>> > >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> ---- >>> >>> > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>> >>> > >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> ---- >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>> >>> > >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > -- >>> >>> > > Josh Luthman >>> >>> > > Office: 937-552-2340 >>> >>> > > Direct: 937-552-2343 >>> >>> > > 1100 Wayne St >>> >>> > > Suite 1337 >>> >>> > > Troy, OH 45373 >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to >>> >>> > > continue that counts." >>> >>> > > --- Winston Churchill >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> ---- >>> >>> > > WISPA Wants You! 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