ED, You are correct that 'happiness' can certainly be a sponteneous feeling - as are all emotions, but when it is expressed as a goal it is a concept.
I'm not saying that proseltizing is good or bad. It all depends on what you're selling. I just stated that from my experience the proseltizing associated with Zen Buddhism is from the Buddhist side, not the zen side. Also there is a well-known credo in zen that a student will only ripen when he/she is ready. A teacher can't hasten that by proselitizing or marketing. I'll refer you back to all the zen stories, myths (and the parallel scene in FIGHT CLUB) where the would-be students are rejected time and time aqain, and only accpeted when the teacher is sure they are sincere and ready. This is the opposite of prosetising to me. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@...> wrote: > > > > > > BILL: There is nothing 'wrong' with living with the illusion of self > and having attachments. > > MIKE: Bill, there's nothing morally wrong with that illusion, but it's > wrong in the sense that it is an incorrect interpretation of reality. > > ED: Mike, how will you proceed to convince the other 99.9% of humans > that their experience of reality is incorrect? > > > > > BILL: Buddhism 101 teaches that attachments are the cause of > sufferring. > > MIKE: Not just that there are attachments per se, but not seeing thru > those attachments. > > ED: Mike, what do you mean by "seeing through those attachments"? > > > > BILL: 'Happiness' is a dualistic concept. If you create 'happiness' then > you also create 'sadness' or sufferring. > > MIKE: True, but again this is not the whole story. The more we drop the > 'defilements' of craving, aversion, bad conduct etc. the more the mind > is freed to show its inherent purity. It's not wrong to say that > Happiness (as do Equanimity, Bliss, Compassion etc.) arises when this > eventuates (as opposed to the dualistic 'happiness' of, say, buying a > new car). > > ED: Bill, 'happiness' is a feeling or experience, not a concept. > Happiness and unhappiness cannot be created, but are a consequence of > our thoughts, words and deeds and their interactions with the external > world. > > > > > BILL: If you're okay with that then you have no strong incentive to take > up zen. Zen (lower-case 'z') does not prosletize. Buddhism and Zen > Buddhism might, but zen does not. > > MIKE: People prosletize. Zen Buddhism, arising out of Buddhism, takes > what the Buddha said seriously: "Don't just believe and follow what I > say, but find out the truth of what I say for yourselves." > > ED: Bill, it appears that you (dualistically) regard 'not proselytizing' > as preferable to proselytizing. > > > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Bill!, > >There is nothing 'wrong' with living with the illusion of self and > having attachments. > > There's nothing morally wrong with that illusion, but it's wrong in the > sense that it is an incorrect interpretation of reality. > > >Buddhism 101 teaches that attachments are the cause of sufferring. > > Not just that there are attachments per se, but not seeing thru those > attachments. > > > 'Happiness' is a dualistic concept. If you create 'happiness' then you > also create 'sadness' or sufferring. > > True, but again this is not the whole story. The more we drop the > 'defilements' of craving, aversion, bad conduct etc. the more the mind > is freed to show its inherent purity. It's not wrong to say that > Happiness (as do Equanimity, Bliss, Compassion etc.) arises when this > eventuates (as opposed to the dualistic 'happiness' of, say, buying a > new car). > > >If you're okay with that then you have no strong incentive to take up > zen. Zen (lower-case 'z') does not prosletize. Buddhism and Zen Buddhism > might, but zen does not. > > People prosletize. Zen Buddhism, arising out of Buddhism, takes what the > Buddha said seriously: "Don't just believe and follow what I say, but > find out the truth of what I say for yourselves." > > Mike > > > ED, > > There is nothing 'wrong' with living with the illusion of self and > having attachments. Buddhism 101 teaches that attachments are the cause > of sufferring. 'Happiness' is a dualistic concept. If you create > 'happiness' then you also create 'sadness' or sufferring. > > If you're okay with that then you have no strong incentive to take up > zen. Zen (lower-case 'z') does not prosletize. Buddhism and Zen Buddhism > might, but zen does not. > > ...Bill! > > Bill, > > > > Within limits, what's the problem with having attachments which make > one > > happy. All non-human living entities and 99.9 percent of humans are > > under the illusion of self. > > > > So what? > > > > --ED > > > ED, > > > > > > 'Gratifying the self' is another phrase for 'having attachments'. It > > also implies the person is still under the illusion of 'self'. > > > > > > ...Bill > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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