Hello ZenDervish (salik?), I'm sorry I don't quite understand what you were trying to explain to me even after re-reading your post a few times.
Would you mind putting it differently? One thing, I wasn't expressing any doubts in goal and practice in my reply to Bill's post. Siska -----Original Message----- From: "salik888" <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 21:53:47 To: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism Dear Siska In the manual, How To Cook Your Life, From the Kitchen to Enlightenment, Eihei Dogen/Kosho Uchiyama Roshi, it begins with the seeming paradox of your asserted doubts about goal and practice. This, along with a variety of other distinctions (what is Zen? who is Zen? is Zen Buddhism? little zen, BIG ZEN, no Zen/zen, is an ongoing tendency of those who circle the subject like carrion. I would suggest that, well, great emphasis (the practice of being emphatic is just that, big emphasis) . . . I won't even dare to qualify much of this other than say, well there it is . . . If you look at the history of Zen, the writers, scholars, poets, masters, this is addressed almost continuously in some form or another. Then there are those who sit, no big deal. Zen has its equivalent of modern Texans, Big Hat, No Cattle. So, there is that. best wishes ZenDervish --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > > So...zen teachers usually (and properly) just tell a student that zazen has > > no goal. What they don't say I guess is that if you are practicing zen with > > a goal in mind, you'll eventually have to deal with that also. > > I don't think anyone can practise without goal (no matter how the teacher > says not to, or even how one believes that he/she is not supposed to have any > goal) until he deals with this. > > Until then, either one practises with goal, or thinks he practises without > goal. > > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 00:58:20 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > ED, > > You are persistent! Do you have a profession in sales? > > The reason you'll see a lot of zen teachings which say that zen or zazen has > "no hope, expectation, reason or gain" - no goal, is that it anything like > that would be an attachment. Attachments cause suffering. That's Buddhism > 101. So...zen teacher's don't want you to just add on another attachment. > > I can only answer for myself. When I began zen practice I certainly had a > goal. It was a very selfish goal. That goal (attachment) certianly got me > started and helped me persist in my early practice. BUT at sometime I had to > abandon that goal for at least 2 reasons: 1 - is that it was a goal that if > achieved would be harmful to me, and 2 - is was just another attachment that > I had to 'see through' and discard. Actually in writing these I just found > out they say the same thing. The goal turned out to be just another illusion. > > So...zen teachers usually (and properly) just tell a student that zazen has > no goal. What they don't say I guess is that if you are practicing zen with > a goal in mind, you'll eventually have to deal with that also. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > No goal for any specific zazen session. OK. Any hope, expectation, > > reason or gain for being involved in zazen, in general? Any hope, > > expectation, reason or gain for being involved with Zen? > > > > Thanks, ED > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > ED, > > > > > > Please read (again) Warner-Schwarner's comments below, especially this > > one: > > > > > > [Warner-Schwarner] The goal (or even "a goal") of zazen is not to > > clear your mind of thoughts. There is no goal of zazen. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > >
