Dear Siska Gasho
"I don't think anyone can practise without goal (no matter how the teacher says not to, or even how one believes that he/she is not supposed to have any goal) until he deals with this." This struck me as a little doubtful, particularly the first part. While I have had no teacher tell me this. The Zen teachers that I have practiced with have put great emphasis on Shikan Taza, neither goal nor no goals. Of course apologies if I have misunderstood, or perhaps coming into a thread late, etc . . . My sense of goal no goal situation is really through faith and humility, two expressions that are a little tainted and loaded from our Western perceptions -- Christian. But nevertheless, goal no goal through Zazen Shikan Taza -- humility, thus faith. Can't learn anything from others, or Master, unless we study and practice humility. best wishes Kirk --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hello ZenDervish (salik?), > > I'm sorry I don't quite understand what you were trying to explain to me even > after re-reading your post a few times. > > Would you mind putting it differently? > > One thing, I wasn't expressing any doubts in goal and practice in my reply to > Bill's post. > > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: "salik888" <novelidea8@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 21:53:47 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > Dear Siska > > In the manual, How To Cook Your Life, From the Kitchen to Enlightenment, > Eihei Dogen/Kosho Uchiyama Roshi, it begins with the seeming paradox of your > asserted doubts about goal and practice. > > > This, along with a variety of other distinctions (what is Zen? who is Zen? is > Zen Buddhism? little zen, BIG ZEN, no Zen/zen, is an ongoing tendency of > those who circle the subject like carrion. > > I would suggest that, well, great emphasis (the practice of being emphatic is > just that, big emphasis) . . . I won't even dare to qualify much of this > other than say, well there it is . . . > > If you look at the history of Zen, the writers, scholars, poets, masters, > this is addressed almost continuously in some form or another. > > Then there are those who sit, no big deal. > > Zen has its equivalent of modern Texans, Big Hat, No Cattle. > > So, there is that. > > best wishes > > ZenDervish > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > So...zen teachers usually (and properly) just tell a student that zazen > > > has no goal. What they don't say I guess is that if you are practicing > > > zen with a goal in mind, you'll eventually have to deal with that also. > > > > I don't think anyone can practise without goal (no matter how the teacher > > says not to, or even how one believes that he/she is not supposed to have > > any goal) until he deals with this. > > > > Until then, either one practises with goal, or thinks he practises without > > goal. > > > > Siska > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 00:58:20 > > To: <[email protected]> > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > ED, > > > > You are persistent! Do you have a profession in sales? > > > > The reason you'll see a lot of zen teachings which say that zen or zazen > > has "no hope, expectation, reason or gain" - no goal, is that it anything > > like that would be an attachment. Attachments cause suffering. That's > > Buddhism 101. So...zen teacher's don't want you to just add on another > > attachment. > > > > I can only answer for myself. When I began zen practice I certainly had a > > goal. It was a very selfish goal. That goal (attachment) certianly got me > > started and helped me persist in my early practice. BUT at sometime I had > > to abandon that goal for at least 2 reasons: 1 - is that it was a goal that > > if achieved would be harmful to me, and 2 - is was just another attachment > > that I had to 'see through' and discard. Actually in writing these I just > > found out they say the same thing. The goal turned out to be just another > > illusion. > > > > So...zen teachers usually (and properly) just tell a student that zazen has > > no goal. What they don't say I guess is that if you are practicing zen > > with a goal in mind, you'll eventually have to deal with that also. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > No goal for any specific zazen session. OK. Any hope, expectation, > > > reason or gain for being involved in zazen, in general? Any hope, > > > expectation, reason or gain for being involved with Zen? > > > > > > Thanks, ED > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > ED, > > > > > > > > Please read (again) Warner-Schwarner's comments below, especially this > > > one: > > > > > > > > [Warner-Schwarner] The goal (or even "a goal") of zazen is not to > > > clear your mind of thoughts. There is no goal of zazen. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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