Mike,
Thanks for the clarifications. These help a little - but...
I believe in the absence of self ('I') there are no desires (no picking and
choosing) - so there is nothing to hold onto nor avert.
On the second point I believe experience produces awareness, but then can
through post-experience cognitive processes (such as subjective meditation -
self introspection) can also become concepts and eventually knowledge. An
example is kensho. It is an experience, but when we talk about it we talk
about the concept of kensho. This is the same as Buddha Mind. We can all talk
and talk about it, but the only way of actually demonstrating it is
face-to-face contact - although perhaps some koans come close, or are at least
a vehicle to induce the experience of kensho.
...Bill!
--- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote:
>
> Bill!,
>
> The top quote is accurate, but quite clumsily expressed so I can understand
> your confusion.
>
> >[Mike} ... If there is no 'I' to hold onto desires, or to avert the things
> >we don't
> like, then this leads to suffering (I can't stay young forever and I
> can't hold back >ageing).
>
> The fact that there is no 'I' makes it impossible to hold onto desires/avert
> the things we don't like. If we don't see thru this, and believe in the
> illusion of an 'I', then we will inevitably suffer when our desires/aversions
> are thwarted.
>
> Regarding the second quote, I said in another post that the nyanas are just
> recordings/signposts of actual experience. The essence of the nyanas is
> experience. Dogen talking about kensho or Buddha Nature doesn't mean that
> both are therefore purely cognivite constructs or mere knowledge. Thanks for
> pointing out those difficulties and hope that clarifies things a bit more?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bill! <BillSmart@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, 5 June 2011, 17:55
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
>
>
> Â
> Mike,
>
> I'm trying to take note of your post below.
>
> The first point:
>
> [Mike} ...and also in that moment to moment coming and going of sensation
> (Bill! take note) there can be no permanently existing 'I'. If there is no
> 'I' to hold onto desires, or to avert the things we don't like, then this
> leads to suffering (I can't stay young forever and I can't hold back ageing).
>
> I disagree with entirely. It is the illusion of self ('I') that has
> attachments such as desires, likes and dislikes. It is the illusion of self
> that leads to suffering. Maybe you mis-wrote your sentences above?
>
> The second point:
>
> [Mike} These insights BTW are what we refer to as the nyanas (as opposed to
> the 'jhanas') and only come thru experience and arenot cognitive (Bill!,
> please take note again!).
>
> I still don't know exactly what you mean when you say 'nyanas', but if they
> are any form of 'knowledge' (because I think that's what you said), then they
> are a result of at least in part cognition. The result of cognition is
> knowledge. The result of experience is awareness.
>
> ...Bill!
>
>
> --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Siska,
> >
> > You're absolutely correct - impermanence is only one of many insights one
> > can gain thru sitting with pain. I was only focusing on impermanence
> > because that is usually the first insight one gets into the 3
> > Characteristics (Impermanence; no-self and suffering). When we really
> > concentrate on pain (remember I'm not talking about the disabling kind of
> > pain), we can see that it doesn't exist as a 'block' of pain, but is
> > experienced as very fine vibrations (a bit like a turned-on light bulb
> > appears to be solid but is actually vibrating). Next we might come to see
> > that 'I' am not in control of where the pain appears or disappears, and
> > also in that moment to moment coming and going of sensation (Bill! take
> > note) there can be no permanently existing 'I'. If there is no 'I' to hold
> > onto desires, or to avert the things we don't like, then this leads to
> > suffering (I can't stay young forever and I can't hold back ageing). These
> > insights BTW are what we refer to as
> the
> > nyanas (as opposed to the 'jhanas') and only come thru experience and
> > arenot cognitive (Bill!, please take note again!). Hope this clarified
> > things a little more.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: "siska_cen@" <siska_cen@>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Saturday, 4 June 2011, 21:01
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> >
> >
> > ÃÂ
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > > Vipassana meditation encourages you to face that discomfort and gain
> > > insight into the impermanence of that pain/discomfort and how our
> > > body/mind reactes to it (usually aversion).
> >
> > I've seen you relating pain to insight into impermanence a few times. I
> > often read this in books or articles too. Why isn't it related to suffering
> > and no-self too? When experiencing pain, one can see it as pain instead of
> > *my* pain. This is not insight of impermanence, is it?
> >
> > Siska
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@>
> > Sender: [email protected]
> > Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 04:58:02 +0100 (BST)
> > To: [email protected]<[email protected]>
> > ReplyTo: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> > ÃÂ
> > Bill!,
> > >I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or back... Usually pain in
> > >the legs or back is do to bad sitting posture...
> >
> > I disagree. Usually pain in the legs, hips, back, shoulders etc. is merely
> > another word for 'discomfort' induced by sitting in one position and not
> > brought on by anything serious. You could have the suppleness of a yogi or
> > ballerina and still experience 'pain' from sitting for an hour - in
> > contrast to the very real pain caused by something more serious. Vipassana
> > meditation encourages you to face that discomfort and gain insight into the
> > impermanence of that pain/discomfort and how our body/mind reactes to it
> > (usually aversion). Or you could just wave a white flag to it ; ) ÃÂ
> > Hooah!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Thursday, 2 June 2011, 9:48
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> >
> >
> > ÃÂ
> > Mike,
> >
> > Nice try but my attachment to my zafu is via my butt and not my
> > discriminating mind. I don't contemplate the various attributes of my zafu
> > while sitting. Like, 'What is it that keeps me off the floor?'.
> >
> > In sesshins (Japanese Zen Buddhist meditation retreats)I have sat as long
> > as 40 mins periods, and even up to 60 mins occasionally when the
> > time-keeper goes to sleep.
> >
> > I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or back. I will make some
> > adjustments to try to alleviate the pain and continue sitting, but if that
> > fails I'll just get up, walk around a little and then return to sitting.
> > Usually pain in the legs or back is do to bad sitting posture so I make
> > sure my posture is correct when I return to sitting.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill!,
> > >
> > > So it's safe to say you have no attacments to where or how you sit, other
> > > than what is comfortable at that particular time? Same with the jhanas.
> > > They take you deeper into your meditation and help to make the session
> > > last longer (much like discovering a zafu that fits your bum correctly ;)
> > > But they are not essential. There are warnings aplenty in the literature
> > > I've read against becoming attached to them just like anything else (at
> > > the risk of becoming a 'bliss-bunny').
> > >
> > >
> > > I usually time my sittings between 40-60 mins depending on how busy I am.
> > > If I have time I'll do this twice a day, but at least once in the
> > > evening. I usually sit cross-legged, but will sometimes sit Burmese
> > > style. If I'm feeling that the session is going well (in a vipassana
> > > sense), but the pain is becoming too distracting, then I'll stay mindful
> > > of my movements, but change to a more comfortable position. However, the
> > > 40-60 min session is usually done with no movement or changing of
> > > position whatsoever (I wasn't kidding when I said vipassana is the SAS of
> > > meditation sessions!).ÃâÃÂ
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________
> > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 1 June 2011, 16:08
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> > >
> > >
> > > ÃâÃÂ
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > At home I have a zafu and zabuton. My zafu is x-large to accomodate my
> > > x-large butt. I sit cross-legged now. I used to sit in a half-lotus but
> > > never could really manage a full-lotus. I eventually found the
> > > half-lotus to put me into a little bit of a tilt so I now just sit
> > > cross-legged, and switch the top and bottom leg occasionally when I
> > > remember to do so. I usually sit for 3-consequtive 20-minute periods
> > > with a 5-minute break in between to get up and stretch, walk around or go
> > > to the toliet.
> > >
> > > When I travel I just stuff a pillow between my legs and sit in a kneeling
> > > position; or if that doesn't work I just sit on a firm chair (wood is
> > > best), sitting on the front edge with my back straight and not leaning
> > > against the chair.
> > >
> > > How about you?
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill!,
> > > >
> > > > >or (IMO) ATTACHMENT to jhanas.
> > > >
> > > > Do you usually use a zafu/mat etc. to sit zazen, or do you just sit
> > > > wherever?
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
