Hi Mike, > I was only focusing on impermanence because that is usually the first insight > one gets into the 3 Characteristics (Impermanence; no-self and suffering).
So that's why. Having through it differently myself, I didn't realise most people get into impermanence first. I suspect from zen perspective, your nyana description (very familiar to me) would still sound like intellectual reflections. I would say that these explanation on the experience is relative and cognitive, but the experience is not. At the moment of experience, there was initially only plain awareness watching the pain (or sensation we normally call 'pain). At one point, there is only the sensation (previously noted as pain), no more watching awareness. After the experience, the mind explains it in relation to the three characteristics the way you described it. Siska -----Original Message----- From: mike brown <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 13:56:27 To: [email protected]<[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism Hi Siska, You're absolutely correct - impermanence is only one of many insights one can gain thru sitting with pain. I was only focusing on impermanence because that is usually the first insight one gets into the 3 Characteristics (Impermanence; no-self and suffering). When we really concentrate on pain (remember I'm not talking about the disabling kind of pain), we can see that it doesn't exist as a 'block' of pain, but is experienced as very fine vibrations (a bit like a turned-on light bulb appears to be solid but is actually vibrating). Next we might come to see that 'I' am not in control of where the pain appears or disappears, and also in that moment to moment coming and going of sensation (Bill! take note) there can be no permanently existing 'I'. If there is no 'I' to hold onto desires, or to avert the things we don't like, then this leads to suffering (I can't stay young forever and I can't hold back ageing). These insights BTW are what we refer to as the nyanas (as opposed to the 'jhanas') and only come thru experience and arenot cognitive (Bill!, please take note again!). Hope this clarified things a little more. Mike ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, 4 June 2011, 21:01 Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism Hi Mike, > Vipassana meditation encourages you to face that discomfort and gain insight > into the impermanence of that pain/discomfort and how our body/mind reactes > to it (usually aversion). I've seen you relating pain to insight into impermanence a few times. I often read this in books or articles too. Why isn't it related to suffering and no-self too? When experiencing pain, one can see it as pain instead of *my* pain. This is not insight of impermanence, is it? Siska ________________________________ From: mike brown <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 04:58:02 +0100 (BST) To: [email protected]<[email protected]> ReplyTo: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism Bill!, >I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or back... Usually pain in the >legs or back is do to bad sitting posture... I disagree. Usually pain in the legs, hips, back, shoulders etc. is merely another word for 'discomfort' induced by sitting in one position and not brought on by anything serious. You could have the suppleness of a yogi or ballerina and still experience 'pain' from sitting for an hour - in contrast to the very real pain caused by something more serious. Vipassana meditation encourages you to face that discomfort and gain insight into the impermanence of that pain/discomfort and how our body/mind reactes to it (usually aversion). Or you could just wave a white flag to it ; ) Hooah! Mike ________________________________ From: Bill! <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, 2 June 2011, 9:48 Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism Mike, Nice try but my attachment to my zafu is via my butt and not my discriminating mind. I don't contemplate the various attributes of my zafu while sitting. Like, 'What is it that keeps me off the floor?'. In sesshins (Japanese Zen Buddhist meditation retreats)I have sat as long as 40 mins periods, and even up to 60 mins occasionally when the time-keeper goes to sleep. I never try to 'sit through' pain in my legs or back. I will make some adjustments to try to alleviate the pain and continue sitting, but if that fails I'll just get up, walk around a little and then return to sitting. Usually pain in the legs or back is do to bad sitting posture so I make sure my posture is correct when I return to sitting. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > So it's safe to say you have no attacments to where or how you sit, other > than what is comfortable at that particular time? Same with the jhanas. They > take you deeper into your meditation and help to make the session last longer > (much like discovering a zafu that fits your bum correctly ;) But they are > not essential. There are warnings aplenty in the literature I've read against > becoming attached to them just like anything else (at the risk of becoming a > 'bliss-bunny'). > > > I usually time my sittings between 40-60 mins depending on how busy I am. If > I have time I'll do this twice a day, but at least once in the evening. I > usually sit cross-legged, but will sometimes sit Burmese style. If I'm > feeling that the session is going well (in a vipassana sense), but the pain > is becoming too distracting, then I'll stay mindful of my movements, but > change to a more comfortable position. However, the 40-60 min session is > usually done with no movement or changing of position whatsoever (I wasn't > kidding when I said vipassana is the SAS of meditation sessions!). > > Mike > > > >________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, 1 June 2011, 16:08 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > >  > Mike, > > At home I have a zafu and zabuton. My zafu is x-large to accomodate my > x-large butt. I sit cross-legged now. I used to sit in a half-lotus but > never could really manage a full-lotus. I eventually found the half-lotus to > put me into a little bit of a tilt so I now just sit cross-legged, and switch > the top and bottom leg occasionally when I remember to do so. I usually sit > for 3-consequtive 20-minute periods with a 5-minute break in between to get > up and stretch, walk around or go to the toliet. > > When I travel I just stuff a pillow between my legs and sit in a kneeling > position; or if that doesn't work I just sit on a firm chair (wood is best), > sitting on the front edge with my back straight and not leaning against the > chair. > > How about you? > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Bill!, > > > > >or (IMO) ATTACHMENT to jhanas. > > > > Do you usually use a zafu/mat etc. to sit zazen, or do you just sit > > wherever? > > > > Mike > > >
