> You paint such a hard line between Seeing things as they are and not Thank you, Chris. I never thought of this before. You are right.
> The unconditioned is present whether I amperforming my oddly derived version > of zazen or whether I am trying towin an argument with my eleven year old. Yes, the unconditioned is there, but whether 'you' are unconditioned in any of those acts? Siska -----Original Message----- From: Chris Austin-Lane <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 07:25:46 To: [email protected]<[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out? I guess I don't see the trance thing as a trick You paint such a hard line between Seeing things as they are and not. One cannot "make yourself accept pain" whether you wait for a bolt of awareness of non-self to arise from the blue or whether you do certain mental trance work that encourages your nervous system to perceive pain as not a problem. The unconditioned is present whether I am performing my oddly derived version of zazen or whether I am trying to win an argument with my eleven year old. As is the conditioned. There is no purity to find here. Thanks,Chris Austin-LaneSent from a cell phone On Jun 8, 2011, at 17:31, [email protected] wrote: Chris, Because it is self-directed, as you said, it cannot be seeing things as they are. I believe there is a difference between making myself accepting the pain and the acceptance that happens just like that during sitting. The first is conditioned by many things, while the latter is not. SiskaFrom: ChrisAustinLane <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 18:52:16 -0700To: [email protected]<[email protected]>ReplyTo: [email protected] Cc: [email protected]<[email protected]>Subject: Re: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out? Thanks,Chris Austin-LaneSent from a cell phone On Jun 7, 2011, at 18:00, [email protected] wrote: Chris, > But the autohypnosis and trance stuff doesn't seem like a trick to me.How can > the mind be tricked? It is not open awareness of the presentreality, but it > does really change the way the nerves are working I don't know how the autohypnosis exactly works, but what I understand with hypnotherapy, they make you see certain things in certain ways by manipulating your unconscious mind. As you said, it is not really seeing things as they are. Autohypnosis is more self-directed than that; first you put yourself into a light trance, with deep breathing and perhaps a body scan, then you turn your attention to the pain and lean your awareness into it; welcoming it, gradually the intensity lessens and it becomes a normal part of reality rather than a problem. To do something like witching warts off, you might use visualization but for simple pain relief it is just the leaning openly and accepting what is. < br> Siska From: Chris Austin-Lane <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 07:06:27 -0700To: [email protected]<[email protected]>ReplyTo: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out? On Tuesday, June 7, 2011, <[email protected]> wrote: > Chris, > >> As a teenager I found a greatdeal of utility in the Gordon Dickson novel >> "Tactics of Mistake" wherethe hero routinely transforms pain into sensation, > > There is a difference between 'actively' transforming the pain into > sensation, that is, tricking our mind into seeing it as sensation, and seeing > the pain as sensation without any effort. The seeing happens just like that > and at that moment, pain didn't even occur in our mind. I would say that what happens for me in sits is that the pain is just what it is but not a problem. What label would be put onto the experience is a totally different matter and at any rate there is no problem. But the autohypnosis and trance stuff doesn't seem like a trick to me. How can the mind be tricked? It is not open awareness of the present reality, but it does really change the way the nerves are working. > >> but I find thatsort of thing, while certainly useful, does not do much to >> weaken thetendency of my mind to judge life or to wish for things to be >> otherthan they are. > > Certainly no, the active effort will not help us in weaken our tendency to > judge. It is only conditioning to the mind. > > SiskaFrom: Chris Austin-Lane <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 22:10:12 -0700To: > [email protected]<[email protected]>ReplyTo: > [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out? > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 5, 2011, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> In vipassana meditation, one is to face whatever discomfort arises during >> meditation (watching your reaction towards it, because that is what it is) >> until one actually sees all those discomforts, pain etc as mere sensations. >> They are still there, but no longer troublesome. > > That is also the case for plain old zazen. > > One can also perform this sort of thing without meditation per se, > just with autohypnosis and trance work. As a teenager I found a great > deal of utility in the Gordon Dickson novel "Tactics of Mistake" where > the hero routinely transforms pain into sensation, but I find that > sort of thing, while certainly useful, does not do much to weaken the > tendency of my mind to judge life or to wish for things to be other > than they are. But the open non-striving nature of zazen does weaken > those tendencies. > >> >>> There is a great deal of practice to be found in sitting still for >>> thirtyminutes watching the desire to scratch ebb and flow around the body >> >> Yup, tell me about it ;-) >> >> SiskaFrom: Chris Austin-Lane <[email protected]> >> Sender: [email protected] >> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 11:28:35 -0700To: >> [email protected]<[email protected]>ReplyTo: >> [email protected] >> Subject: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This topic of pain is very interesting; I find that there is a very >> high correlation between my discomfort while sitting and the degree of >> inattention when I am sitting down onto the zafu. As I've sat over >> time, and gotten more aware of the shape of my butt and the ways that >> the zafu (I use zafus with the kapok hulls or whatever they are, which >> are able to be positioned fairly accurately; and they stay fairly >> constant during a sitting). >> >> One big change that I've noticed from having sat for more years is >> that I am much less likely to sit uncomfortably than at first; when I >> sit near beginners that have incautiously sat down and not managed to >> land symmetrically and with their seat fitting their body, then when >> they start to get quite uncomfortable, I am aware that the sitting is >> easier for me not because of any mental (or 'spritual') change but >> mere physical adjustments. >> >> Generally, the discomfort I have during sitting is more of the "I want >> to scratch!" kind than the "I'm tearing my knee pieces off". There is >> a great deal of practice to be found in sitting still for thirty >> minutes watching the desire to scratch ebb and flow around the body. >> >> But I make very sure to pay attention to how I sit and the last few >> adjustments before the bell rings. I am not looking for that practice >> more than it finds me naturally. >> >> On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 3:16 PM, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi JM, Bill! and ED, >> Yes, I tend to agree with you here. We instinctively know when a >> certain pain is telling us, "Stop what you're doing... NOW!" in order >> to protect us. But the 'pain' from sitting with the spine erect, >> cross-legged on a cushion is not the same thing at all and is merely >> discomfort (often labelled as 'pain' in order to make us feel ok for >> giving in to it). Bill! often talks about the illusionary aspect of >> phenomena - well what a perfect opportunity to put that to the test >> and see pain (NOT the disabling kind) as only a mental construct and >> sit thru it (the pain is not 'me' or 'mine' and is impermanent). Far >> from being cognitive, vipassana meditation 'uses' the body like a >> laboratory to really experience what is ultimate reality and what is >> illusionary. How many of us are satisfied with our zazen and then the >> whole house of cards comes crashing > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! 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Talk about it today! <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97476590/grpId=247056/grpspId=1707589010/msgId=25922/stime=1307579534> Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcm50b3V1BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzI0NzA1NgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDc1ODkwMTAEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDc3RuZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTMwNzU3OTUzNA--> -- Thanks, --Chris [email protected] +1-301-270-6524
