On Tuesday, June 7, 2011, <[email protected]> wrote: > Chris, > >> As a teenager I found a greatdeal of utility in the Gordon Dickson novel >> "Tactics of Mistake" wherethe hero routinely transforms pain into sensation, > > There is a difference between 'actively' transforming the pain into > sensation, that is, tricking our mind into seeing it as sensation, and seeing > the pain as sensation without any effort. The seeing happens just like that > and at that moment, pain didn't even occur in our mind.
I would say that what happens for me in sits is that the pain is just what it is but not a problem. What label would be put onto the experience is a totally different matter and at any rate there is no problem. But the autohypnosis and trance stuff doesn't seem like a trick to me. How can the mind be tricked? It is not open awareness of the present reality, but it does really change the way the nerves are working. > >> but I find thatsort of thing, while certainly useful, does not do much to >> weaken thetendency of my mind to judge life or to wish for things to be >> otherthan they are. > > Certainly no, the active effort will not help us in weaken our tendency to > judge. It is only conditioning to the mind. > > SiskaFrom: Chris Austin-Lane <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 22:10:12 -0700To: > [email protected]<[email protected]>ReplyTo: > [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out? > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 5, 2011, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> In vipassana meditation, one is to face whatever discomfort arises during >> meditation (watching your reaction towards it, because that is what it is) >> until one actually sees all those discomforts, pain etc as mere sensations. >> They are still there, but no longer troublesome. > > That is also the case for plain old zazen. > > One can also perform this sort of thing without meditation per se, > just with autohypnosis and trance work. As a teenager I found a great > deal of utility in the Gordon Dickson novel "Tactics of Mistake" where > the hero routinely transforms pain into sensation, but I find that > sort of thing, while certainly useful, does not do much to weaken the > tendency of my mind to judge life or to wish for things to be other > than they are. But the open non-striving nature of zazen does weaken > those tendencies. > >> >>> There is a great deal of practice to be found in sitting still for >>> thirtyminutes watching the desire to scratch ebb and flow around the body >> >> Yup, tell me about it ;-) >> >> SiskaFrom: Chris Austin-Lane <[email protected]> >> Sender: [email protected] >> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 11:28:35 -0700To: >> [email protected]<[email protected]>ReplyTo: >> [email protected] >> Subject: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This topic of pain is very interesting; I find that there is a very >> high correlation between my discomfort while sitting and the degree of >> inattention when I am sitting down onto the zafu. As I've sat over >> time, and gotten more aware of the shape of my butt and the ways that >> the zafu (I use zafus with the kapok hulls or whatever they are, which >> are able to be positioned fairly accurately; and they stay fairly >> constant during a sitting). >> >> One big change that I've noticed from having sat for more years is >> that I am much less likely to sit uncomfortably than at first; when I >> sit near beginners that have incautiously sat down and not managed to >> land symmetrically and with their seat fitting their body, then when >> they start to get quite uncomfortable, I am aware that the sitting is >> easier for me not because of any mental (or 'spritual') change but >> mere physical adjustments. >> >> Generally, the discomfort I have during sitting is more of the "I want >> to scratch!" kind than the "I'm tearing my knee pieces off". There is >> a great deal of practice to be found in sitting still for thirty >> minutes watching the desire to scratch ebb and flow around the body. >> >> But I make very sure to pay attention to how I sit and the last few >> adjustments before the bell rings. I am not looking for that practice >> more than it finds me naturally. >> >> On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 3:16 PM, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi JM, Bill! and ED, >> Yes, I tend to agree with you here. We instinctively know when a >> certain pain is telling us, "Stop what you're doing... NOW!" in order >> to protect us. But the 'pain' from sitting with the spine erect, >> cross-legged on a cushion is not the same thing at all and is merely >> discomfort (often labelled as 'pain' in order to make us feel ok for >> giving in to it). Bill! often talks about the illusionary aspect of >> phenomena - well what a perfect opportunity to put that to the test >> and see pain (NOT the disabling kind) as only a mental construct and >> sit thru it (the pain is not 'me' or 'mine' and is impermanent). Far >> from being cognitive, vipassana meditation 'uses' the body like a >> laboratory to really experience what is ultimate reality and what is >> illusionary. How many of us are satisfied with our zazen and then the >> whole house of cards comes crashing > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today! > > > > > > Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional > Change settings via the > Web <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDFyNmdwBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzI0NzA1NgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDc1ODkwMTAEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDc3RuZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTMwNzQ1MzU2MQ--> > (Yahoo! 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