Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone
On Jun 7, 2011, at 18:00, [email protected] wrote: > > > Chris, > > > But the autohypnosis and trance stuff doesn't seem like a trick to me.How > > can the mind be tricked? It is not open awareness of the presentreality, > > but it does really change the way the nerves are working > > I don't know how the autohypnosis exactly works, but what I understand with > hypnotherapy, they make you see certain things in certain ways by > manipulating your unconscious mind. As you said, it is not really seeing > things as they are. > Autohypnosis is more self-directed than that; first you put yourself into a light trance, with deep breathing and perhaps a body scan, then you turn your attention to the pain and lean your awareness into it; welcoming it, gradually the intensity lessens and it becomes a normal part of reality rather than a problem. To do something like witching warts off, you might use visualization but for simple pain relief it is just the leaning openly and accepting what is. > Siska > From: Chris Austin-Lane <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 07:06:27 -0700 > To: [email protected]<[email protected]> > ReplyTo: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out? > > On Tuesday, June 7, 2011, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Chris, > > > >> As a teenager I found a greatdeal of utility in the Gordon Dickson novel > >> "Tactics of Mistake" wherethe hero routinely transforms pain into > >> sensation, > > > > There is a difference between 'actively' transforming the pain into > > sensation, that is, tricking our mind into seeing it as sensation, and > > seeing the pain as sensation without any effort. The seeing happens just > > like that and at that moment, pain didn't even occur in our mind. > > I would say that what happens for me in sits is that the pain is just > what it is but not a problem. What label would be put onto the > experience is a totally different matter and at any rate there is no > problem. > > But the autohypnosis and trance stuff doesn't seem like a trick to me. > How can the mind be tricked? It is not open awareness of the present > reality, but it does really change the way the nerves are working. > > > > >> but I find thatsort of thing, while certainly useful, does not do much to > >> weaken thetendency of my mind to judge life or to wish for things to be > >> otherthan they are. > > > > Certainly no, the active effort will not help us in weaken our tendency to > > judge. It is only conditioning to the mind. > > > > SiskaFrom: Chris Austin-Lane <[email protected]> > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 22:10:12 -0700To: > > [email protected]<[email protected]>ReplyTo: > > [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 5, 2011, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Hi Chris, > >> > >> In vipassana meditation, one is to face whatever discomfort arises during > >> meditation (watching your reaction towards it, because that is what it is) > >> until one actually sees all those discomforts, pain etc as mere > >> sensations. They are still there, but no longer troublesome. > > > > That is also the case for plain old zazen. > > > > One can also perform this sort of thing without meditation per se, > > just with autohypnosis and trance work. As a teenager I found a great > > deal of utility in the Gordon Dickson novel "Tactics of Mistake" where > > the hero routinely transforms pain into sensation, but I find that > > sort of thing, while certainly useful, does not do much to weaken the > > tendency of my mind to judge life or to wish for things to be other > > than they are. But the open non-striving nature of zazen does weaken > > those tendencies. > > > >> > >>> There is a great deal of practice to be found in sitting still for > >>> thirtyminutes watching the desire to scratch ebb and flow around the body > >> > >> Yup, tell me about it ;-) > >> > >> SiskaFrom: Chris Austin-Lane <[email protected]> > >> Sender: [email protected] > >> Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 11:28:35 -0700To: > >> [email protected]<[email protected]>ReplyTo: > >> [email protected] > >> Subject: [Zen] Pain: Suck it up or puss out? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> This topic of pain is very interesting; I find that there is a very > >> high correlation between my discomfort while sitting and the degree of > >> inattention when I am sitting down onto the zafu. As I've sat over > >> time, and gotten more aware of the shape of my butt and the ways that > >> the zafu (I use zafus with the kapok hulls or whatever they are, which > >> are able to be positioned fairly accurately; and they stay fairly > >> constant during a sitting). > >> > >> One big change that I've noticed from having sat for more years is > >> that I am much less likely to sit uncomfortably than at first; when I > >> sit near beginners that have incautiously sat down and not managed to > >> land symmetrically and with their seat fitting their body, then when > >> they start to get quite uncomfortable, I am aware that the sitting is > >> easier for me not because of any mental (or 'spritual') change but > >> mere physical adjustments. > >> > >> Generally, the discomfort I have during sitting is more of the "I want > >> to scratch!" kind than the "I'm tearing my knee pieces off". There is > >> a great deal of practice to be found in sitting still for thirty > >> minutes watching the desire to scratch ebb and flow around the body. > >> > >> But I make very sure to pay attention to how I sit and the last few > >> adjustments before the bell rings. I am not looking for that practice > >> more than it finds me naturally. > >> > >> On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 3:16 PM, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> Hi JM, Bill! and ED, > >> Yes, I tend to agree with you here. We instinctively know when a > >> certain pain is telling us, "Stop what you're doing... NOW!" in order > >> to protect us. But the 'pain' from sitting with the spine erect, > >> cross-legged on a cushion is not the same thing at all and is merely > >> discomfort (often labelled as 'pain' in order to make us feel ok for > >> giving in to it). Bill! often talks about the illusionary aspect of > >> phenomena - well what a perfect opportunity to put that to the test > >> and see pain (NOT the disabling kind) as only a mental construct and > >> sit thru it (the pain is not 'me' or 'mine' and is impermanent). Far > >> from being cognitive, vipassana meditation 'uses' the body like a > >> laboratory to really experience what is ultimate reality and what is > >> illusionary. How many of us are satisfied with our zazen and then the > >> whole house of cards comes crashing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > reading! Talk about it today! > > > > > > > > > > > > Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional > > Change settings via the Web > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDFyNmdwBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzI0NzA1NgRncnBzcElkAzE3MDc1ODkwMTAEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDc3RuZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTMwNzQ1MzU2MQ--> > > (Yahoo! 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