Mike, IMO when you talk about things such as 'dependent arising' or 'Buddha Dharma' or anything from the Sutras you are talking about Buddhism not zen. Zen is only concerned with realizing Buddha Nature. Nothing more, and all of these other things have absolutely nothing to do with Buddha Nature. Buddhism is the religious part that supplies all the other superfluous dogma and doctrines.
I don't consider the Sutras and all the other Buddhist dogma and doctrines Buddha's teachings. They are at best first-hand accounts of his teachings but most are second- and third-hand accounts of someone else's recollection and interpretation of his teachings which have been translated from a near-dead language to perhaps an intermediary language and now to English. Each one of those translations introduces interpretations. I have investigated the gist of his teachings myself by becoming a student of a Zen Master and with his guidance experienced Buddha Nature for myself in what I assume was the way Maha Kashapa experienced it during Buddha's 'Wordless Sermon' at Vulture Peak. What you see as a me being "one-sided in your personal philosophy of life" and "rejecting the wisdom of those who've walked the same path we're travelling" is just me trying to describe my experience. Why should I doubt it? And why should I try make sure it corresponds with someone else's experience? When I use the term 'mumbo-jumbo' and even 'illusions' I don't mean to imply they are totally useless, or as Edgar pointed out 'irrelevant'. They are very useful and practical, and are entirely relevant. There just not going to help you, and probably will distract or be a determent to your efforts of experiencing Buddha Nature. Experiencing Buddha Nature to me is zen. Describing Buddha Nature, especially in philosophical terms (any rational terms) is the realm of Buddhism. What is zen? Mu! What is zen? The oak tree in the garden. What is zen? A dried shit-stick? What is zen? A thorough understanding of the ramifications of the concept of dependent arising? I don't think so... IMO zen has nothing to do with Indra's Web, cause-and-effect, dualism, rationality, logic, science, engineering,etc... Zen is the experience of, realization of Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > <br/>Bill!,<br/><br/>I think the first thing that I have to make clear is > that I'm not talking about 'Buddhism'. I'm following the Buddha Dharma and > let's not forget that the last words of Buddha were to investigate for > yourself his teachings. I'm not following dogma, but the things I've > experienced as truth by my own efforts. <br/><br/>I'm not sure if you've read > Joe's post regarding concepts not "being out there", but I thought he > explained it quite well. You seem so one-sided in your personal philosophy of > life. Almost like a kind of stubborn pride in rejecting the wisdom of those > who've walked the same path we're travelling. Of course concepts are used to > explain that which dissolves "into emptiness" in the Now. But to deny them > and dismiss them as mumbo-jumbo seems so, well.. Edgar. They *are* Laws by > the very definition of the word. Your own personal happiness or suffering can > be measured against it quite accurately. Check for yourself!<br/><br/>I > agree with you about the 3 sticks analogy. But it came with the paragraph so > I included it. It paints too linear a picture of cause and effect. Buddha > never painted such a linear picture of It. Indra's Net is a much better > example of cause and effect - for a start there'd be no Net without it! One > condition might not cause another condition; several conditions might not > cause a particular effect; more than likely several conditions cause several > effects. But no matter what - to deny it (cause and effect) is to miss the > liberation from it (that old fox again!).<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent > from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
