Bill, NO!
You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. Therefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now..... Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: > Siska, > > No, unfortunately not. > > Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what > I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In > this case the word is 'forms'. > > Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and > we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and > superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. > > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they > are part of reality. > > We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but > in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. > > Other than that all is well...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: > > > > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! > > > > :-) > > Siska > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > Bill, > > > > Total agreement as stated. > > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality > > instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite > > > opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with > > > this statement ;>) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. > > > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was: > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > But my self was gone. > > > The boundaries of my being > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > It always happens like this. > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > Another being takes form. > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > - Rumi > > > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, > > > come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by > > > slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later > > > composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: > > > > > > I looked for my self, > > > But my self was gone. > > > The boundaries of my being > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > > > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion > > > of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something > > > independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has > > > vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. > > > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > > > It always happens like this. > > > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been > > > interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation > > > between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, > > > much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. > > > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > > > Another being takes form. > > > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, > > > thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. > > > > > > And when the sea sends word, > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > > > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back > > > into emptiness. > > > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what > > > Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke". > > > > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
