Edgar,
Forms are dualistic. They only arise when your intellect creates dualism.
That is the only place where they can 'exist', but they 'exist' there as
illusions - like a dream.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> NO!
>
> You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind.
>
> But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises.
>
> I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist!
>
> Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and
> not mind.
>
> So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not
> yet exist when the forms arise.
>
> Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind.
>
> Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR
> external world, since these are both forms that arise.
>
> So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental
> reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer
> and experienced.
>
> Therefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong...
>
> At the most fundamental level forms just arise.
>
> What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all
> that is possible for anything to arise within.
>
> Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because
> reality is the totality of all that exists.
>
>
> Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious.
>
> There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse
> you with them right now.....
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Siska,
> >
> > No, unfortunately not.
> >
> > Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with
> > what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have
> > stated. In this case the word is 'forms'.
> >
> > Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us
> > and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures
> > and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions.
> >
> > The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they
> > are part of reality.
> >
> > We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic,
> > but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental.
> >
> > Other than that all is well...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally!
> > >
> > > :-)
> > > Siska
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>
> > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25
> > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > Total agreement as stated.
> > >
> > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality
> > > instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning..
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Siska,
> > > >
> > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite
> > > > opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with
> > > > this statement ;>) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this
> > > > post.
> > > >
> > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was:
> > > >
> > > > I looked for my self,
> > > > But my self was gone.
> > > > The boundaries of my being
> > > > Had disappeared in the sea.
> > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again.
> > > > And a voice returned me to myself.
> > > > It always happens like this.
> > > > Sea turns on itself and foams,
> > > > And with every foaming bit another body.
> > > > Another being takes form.
> > > > And when the sea sends word,
> > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.
> > > > - Rumi
> > > >
> > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form,
> > > > come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by
> > > > slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later
> > > > composing this poem. My interpretation of it is:
> > > >
> > > > I looked for my self,
> > > > But my self was gone.
> > > > The boundaries of my being
> > > > Had disappeared in the sea.
> > > >
> > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The
> > > > illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as
> > > > something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with
> > > > it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness.
> > > >
> > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again.
> > > > And a voice returned me to myself.
> > > > It always happens like this.
> > > >
> > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been
> > > > interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation
> > > > between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens
> > > > regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach.
> > > >
> > > > Sea turns on itself and foams,
> > > > And with every foaming bit another body.
> > > > Another being takes form.
> > > >
> > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions,
> > > > thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear.
> > > >
> > > > And when the sea sends word,
> > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.
> > > >
> > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt
> > > > back into emptiness.
> > > >
> > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what
> > > > Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him...
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Bill,
> > > > >
> > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke".
> > > > >
> > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back.
> > > > >
> > > > > Siska
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@
> > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29
> > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ..Bill!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
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