Chris,
I can will myself to think about the things I want to think about. There are
also a lot of times I think about things spontaneously and even involuntarily.
I can halt my thinking. That's what zazen/shikantaza is.
I agree that thoughts are perceptions, but then again in my terminology
perceptions and illusions are pretty much the same thing.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote:
>
> You don't make your thoughts, you merely perceive them. At least, not only
> is the idea of "you" who could make the thoughts a limited idea, but I
> personally can't force myself to think a certain thought, to stop thinking
> some certain thought, or to stop thinking altogether. It is true that
> zazen seems to increase the ability to focus attention instead of having it
> fly off, but the content of the attention is not so volitional, at least
> for me. I find I can notice repetitive patterns in my thoughts by paying
> attention, and that knowing what type of thoughts are clamoring for my
> attention is useful.
>
> Chris, who finds writing to the Zen forum effortless and my actual work
> task impossible to think about.
>
> Thanks,
> --Chris
> 301-270-6524
> On May 29, 2013 4:45 AM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote:
>
> > Edgar and Mike,
> >
> > So...Edgar has his thoughts. Mike has his thoughts. Merle has her
> > thoughts. I have my thoughts. We all make them and we all terminate them.
> > And they are all DIFFERENT! So are you really telling me that you think
> > there is a different set of reality for each person on this planet that
> > they make and terminate all on their own? That's about as dualistic as you
> > can get. Are you telling me you believe reality is dualistic?
> >
> > What you are describing is certainly not what I'd call reality. I'd could
> > call that individual perspectives, or perceptions - anything but reality.
> >
> > And as you know I call them all illusions.
> >
> > If you do decide to continue to call thoughts reality, please call them
> > what you are really describing - realities - individual, customized,
> > temporary realities.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > Correct.
> > >
> > > As I've said over and over, illusion recognized as illusion is reality,
> > but illusion taken for reality is illusion.
> > >
> > > The thought in your head of "Edgar being a member of a boy band" is a
> > perfect example. It's a real thought but the thought is illusory.
> > >
> > > Now extend that to the entire world you think you live in and YOU'VE GOT
> > IT! Because the entire world you think you live in is a construct of your
> > mind. It exists so it is real, but it is an illusion.
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 29, 2013, at 12:49 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote:
> > >
> > > > Edgar, Bill!,
> > > >
> > > > I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few
> > things I'd like your feedback.
> > > > When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is "The dharmas
> > are numberless, I vow to master them". Applying that to this topic, for me,
> > means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought
> > isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy
> > band, then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional
> > thought.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> > > >
> > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>;
> > > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>;
> > > > Subject: [Zen] Nature of Illusion
> > > > Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 12:53:51 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Philosophy and illusion
> > > > [edit]
> > > >
> > > > Just like many other words often used in a different sense in
> > spirituality the word "illusion" is used to denote different aspects in
> > Hindu Philosophy (Maya). Many Monist philosophies clearly demarcate
> > illusion from truth and falsehood. As per Hindu advaita philosophy,
> > Illusion is something which is not true and not false. Whereas in general
> > usage it is common to assume that illusion is false, Hindu philosophy makes
> > a distinction between Maya (illusion) and falsehood. In terms of this
> > philosophy maya is true in itself but it is not true in comparison with the
> > truth. As per this philosophy, illusion is not the opposite of truth or
> > reality. Based on these assumptions Vedas declare that the world as humans
> > normally see is illusion (Maya). It does not mean the world is not real.
> > The world is only so much real as the image of a person in a mirror. The
> > world is not real/true when compared to the reality. But the world is also
> > not false. Falsehood is something which does not exist. if w
> > e apply this philosophy to the above example, the illusion is not
> > actually illusion but is false. This is because in general usage people
> > tend to consider lllusion to be the same as falsehood. As per adishankar's
> > a guru of monist teachings the world we think is not true but is an
> > illusion (not true not false). The truth of the world is something which
> > can only be experienced by removing the identity (ego).
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
> > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------
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