The false idea pointed to by thoughts of "self" included such things as choice. I think thoughts arise without volition, without much choice as we normally conceive of it. One chooses to think a given thought in roughly the same way a person who smokes chooses to have lung cancer. If by "Make" you mean something not involving volition, then I agree (assuming you also mean "body/mind" by "you"). "My whole being" != "me" There is nothing whatsoever to be clung to as me or mine; my whole being is just one bit of the great stream of the universe flowing on.
The thing that causes a specific though rather than some other thought or non-thinking t is what I refer to as the whole history of the universe, balanced with exquisite sensitivity by the balance measuring devices, neuronal junctions and neuronal networks. Post hoc sometimes one can see what led up to a given thought, but not always. And before the thought happens, it can't really be caused or even predicted with great confidence. Maybe really good marketers can get 10% of their memes spread successfully, but in general humans are not that good at predicting what groups of humans will think and do in the future. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 29, 2013 1:53 PM, "Edgar Owen" <edgaro...@att.net> wrote: > > > Chris, > > You have a strange idea of what the 'you' is. > > Of course 'you' make your thoughts. Your whole organism is your 'you', not > just your consciousness. Your whole being obviously generates your > thoughts... Where else would they come from? > > Edgar > > > > On May 29, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > > > You don't make your thoughts, you merely perceive them. At least, not only > is the idea of "you" who could make the thoughts a limited idea, but I > personally can't force myself to think a certain thought, to stop thinking > some certain thought, or to stop thinking altogether. It is true that > zazen seems to increase the ability to focus attention instead of having it > fly off, but the content of the attention is not so volitional, at least > for me. I find I can notice repetitive patterns in my thoughts by paying > attention, and that knowing what type of thoughts are clamoring for my > attention is useful. > > Chris, who finds writing to the Zen forum effortless and my actual work > task impossible to think about. > > Thanks, > --Chris > 301-270-6524 > On May 29, 2013 4:45 AM, "Bill!" <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote: > >> Edgar and Mike, >> >> So...Edgar has his thoughts. Mike has his thoughts. Merle has her >> thoughts. I have my thoughts. We all make them and we all terminate them. >> And they are all DIFFERENT! So are you really telling me that you think >> there is a different set of reality for each person on this planet that >> they make and terminate all on their own? That's about as dualistic as you >> can get. Are you telling me you believe reality is dualistic? >> >> What you are describing is certainly not what I'd call reality. I'd >> could call that individual perspectives, or perceptions - anything but >> reality. >> >> And as you know I call them all illusions. >> >> If you do decide to continue to call thoughts reality, please call them >> what you are really describing - realities - individual, customized, >> temporary realities. >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >> > >> > Mike, >> > >> > Correct. >> > >> > As I've said over and over, illusion recognized as illusion is reality, >> but illusion taken for reality is illusion. >> > >> > The thought in your head of "Edgar being a member of a boy band" is a >> perfect example. It's a real thought but the thought is illusory. >> > >> > Now extend that to the entire world you think you live in and YOU'VE >> GOT IT! Because the entire world you think you live in is a construct of >> your mind. It exists so it is real, but it is an illusion. >> > >> > Edgar >> > >> > >> > On May 29, 2013, at 12:49 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: >> > >> > > Edgar, Bill!, >> > > >> > > I don't have much invested in this topic, but just to clarify a few >> things I'd like your feedback. >> > > When we make our vows at every sit, one of those vows is "The dharmas >> are numberless, I vow to master them". Applying that to this topic, for me, >> means that a thought (a dharma) is real even if the object of that thought >> isn't. For example, if I said Edgar is a 20 year old member of a famous boy >> band, then the thought is real (a dharma) *even though* it is a delusional >> thought. >> > > >> > > Mike >> > > >> > > >> > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> > > >> > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; >> > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com>; >> > > Subject: [Zen] Nature of Illusion >> > > Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 12:53:51 AM >> > > >> > > >> > > Bill, >> > > >> > > >> > > Philosophy and illusion >> > > [edit] >> > > >> > > Just like many other words often used in a different sense in >> spirituality the word "illusion" is used to denote different aspects in >> Hindu Philosophy (Maya). Many Monist philosophies clearly demarcate >> illusion from truth and falsehood. As per Hindu advaita philosophy, >> Illusion is something which is not true and not false. Whereas in general >> usage it is common to assume that illusion is false, Hindu philosophy makes >> a distinction between Maya (illusion) and falsehood. In terms of this >> philosophy maya is true in itself but it is not true in comparison with the >> truth. As per this philosophy, illusion is not the opposite of truth or >> reality. Based on these assumptions Vedas declare that the world as humans >> normally see is illusion (Maya). It does not mean the world is not real. >> The world is only so much real as the image of a person in a mirror. The >> world is not real/true when compared to the reality. But the world is also >> not false. Falsehood is something which does not exist . if w >> e apply this philosophy to the above example, the illusion is not >> actually illusion but is false. This is because in general usage people >> tend to consider lllusion to be the same as falsehood. As per adishankar's >> a guru of monist teachings the world we think is not true but is an >> illusion (not true not false). The truth of the world is something which >> can only be experienced by removing the identity (ego). >> > > >> > > Edgar >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > > > >
