Edgar, See my recent prior post where I discuss just what can be considered the core beliefs of any religions - your (or some others') interpretation of what their 'Holy' books say, or the way it is understood and practiced it's members.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > Karma and reincarnation are beliefs of the religious supernatural peripheral > manifestations of Buddhism. They are not core teachings... > > Buddha himself clearly stated that "all compound entities must cease" which > of course rules out reincarnation since humans are compound entities. > > The correct Buddhist view of karma is as I explained it below. It's only in > popular supernatural Buddhism that it's been distorted to become a comfort > sop for the weak and oppressed to make them believe that the meek will > someday inherit the earth crap.... > > Edgar > > > > On Jun 5, 2013, at 7:20 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Oh yeah, and I forgot - so is reincarnation...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Edgar, et al... > > > > > > The only thing I'd agree with in Edgar's post below is that karma is > > > indeed a core Buddhist teaching. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Mike and Bill, > > > > > > > > Mike, Bill is totally hopeless here. He has somehow got into his head > > > > that there is no cause and effect and argues that on the basis of cause > > > > and effect while living his life, like everyone else does, on the basis > > > > of cause and effect. > > > > > > > > It would be a potentially dangerous delusion if he actually believed it > > > > which he really doesn't. He's just somehow got into his head that zen > > > > people are not supposed to believe in cause and effect even though > > > > EVERY Zen teacher from Buddha through Dogen onward has clearly affirmed > > > > that cause and effect rules the world of forms. > > > > > > > > I've tried to explain this self evident fact to Bill over and over with > > > > no success. > > > > > > > > That being said the simplistic view of Karma that good begets good and > > > > evil evil is clearly much too naive. And of course there is no > > > > reincarnation. > > > > > > > > However the quote you gave does not say that. What it says is that if > > > > you yourself have bad thoughts and incorrect thoughts you will suffer > > > > but if you have right thought you can avoid suffering to that extent. > > > > That is correct and a core Buddhist teaching - which of course > > > > incorporates cause and effect. > > > > > > > > It's really rather humorous and sad at the same time to see Bill > > > > obsessively trying to use tight logical cause and effect arguments to > > > > deny the existence of cause and effect, the world of forms, and the > > > > importance of reason.... > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 5, 2013, at 6:42 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > You didn't 'catch me on a bad day' but you did read a little more > > > > > into my post than I actually wrote there. Edgar does this a lot. > > > > > > > > > > I agreed with your statement: "Karma isn't some cosmic law-giver > > > > > dispensing justice based on good or bad acts". That doesn't mean I > > > > > think 'karma' exists at all. It would be like saying 'I agree with > > > > > you when you say Santa Claus doesn't wear a plaid suit'. > > > > > > > > > > I do appreciate your distinction between 'bad' and 'unwholesome'. > > > > > 'Bad' is just a judgement. 'Unwholesome' carries with it a > > > > > connotation that the effect itself is part of the cause. Like > > > > > something that is 'unhealthy' will make you sick. > > > > > > > > > > My opinion is 'karma' is used in the Buddhist religion a carrot and > > > > > stick to persuade you to act 'good' and not 'bad'. It is described as > > > > > something 'automatic' so that if you do something 'bad' it will > > > > > result in 'bad' things happening to you. In that respect it is used > > > > > in much the same way as is 'heaven' and 'hell' in Christianity. > > > > > > > > > > In both cases if there does appear to be a strong correlation between > > > > > doing 'bad' things and having 'bad' things happen to you it is not > > > > > because of any 'cosmic law', but because you believe it. In that > > > > > respect it's kind of like another religion that has a lot of > > > > > cause-and-effect in it -voodoo. > > > > > > > > > > The 'night follows day' is a common phrase and I did misinterpret the > > > > > extent of your use of it here, but you did use it to mean that there > > > > > was an absolute inevitability with karma which I've said I don't buy. > > > > > > > > > > Anyway it was a nice discussion anyway. > > > > > > > > > > I say karma, sharma! > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>Wow, catch you on a bad day or > > > > > > something??<br/><br/><br/>>First you say "Karma isn't some cosmic > > > > > > law-giver dispensing justice based on good or bad acts" >I > > > > > > wholeheartedly agree with that...<br/><br/>I'm still stunned (yet > > > > > > impressed) that you didn't just call it 'illusory'! <br/><br/>>BUT > > > > > > then you say "If you think and/or do unwholesome deeds, then > > > > > > suffering will follow you like >night follows day (and > > > > > > vice-versa)". So you first say karma has nothing to do with justice > > > > > > (fairness >in applying law) or good/bad acts and good/bad > > > > > > consequences, but then go onto say if you do >bad things you'll > > > > > > suffer. <br/><br/>Yes, and that's because it has nothing to do with > > > > > > justice and all to do with the more natural and consequential > > > > > > nature of such actions (You'll notice that you used the word "bad" > > > > > > where I used the more limited "unwholesome"). <br/><br/>>That's a > > > > > > non sequitur at best and just plain contradictory and inconsistent > > > > > > at worst. If you do good > > > > > > things you may suffer too. If you do bad things you may not. How > > > > > > does that fit into your 'logic'?<br/><br/>Your problem is that > > > > > > you're still focusing on external situations (they were robbed; > > > > > > insulted; a loved one leaves etc) that are acted on someone and not > > > > > > on how those situations are processed by the person affected. > > > > > > Wholesome thoughts lead to wholesome actions which in turn cause > > > > > > further wholesome thoughts, and so on, which extinguish (mental) > > > > > > suffering. Karma is not a magic talisman that stops "bad" things > > > > > > happening to you externally.<br/><br/>>You then go on to use an > > > > > > inappropriate simile saying these effects of karma is "like night > > > > > > follows >day (and vice-versa)". Night does not 'cause' day, and day > > > > > > does not 'cause' night. No one I know >of would seriously say that > > > > > > night and day have a cause-and-effect relationship. Night and day > > > > > > are >perceived as asynchronous, serial, and in this case cyclic > > > > > > events.<br/><br/>My use of 'Like night follows day' is > > > > > > just an everyday expression of the consequences of a thought/action > > > > > > and NOT an example of cause and effect! Have you ever heard of the > > > > > > Dharmapada? This is how the Buddha expressed it:<br/><br/>"What we > > > > > > are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present > > > > > > thoughts build our life of tomorrow: our life is the creation of > > > > > > our mind.<br/>- If a man speaks or acts with an impure mind, > > > > > > suffering will follow him as the wheel of the cart follows the > > > > > > beast that draws the cart.<br/>- If a man speaks or acts with a > > > > > > pure mind, joy follows him as his own shadow." > > > > > > (deeshan.com)<br/><br/>That's the meaning I wanted to convey. Don't > > > > > > look at my use of 'night follows day' as being an example of cause > > > > > > and effect, but more along the lines of 'what will surely > > > > > > follow'.<br/><br/><br/>>Also, as I said in my previous post, if > > > > > > karma does exist, and a good/bad action (cause) results in a > > > > > > >corresponding good/bad effect (as you have said it doesn't but > > > > > > then said it > > > > > > does); and as all good >Buddhists believe karma can accumulate and > > > > > > even persist through rebirth/reincarnation, to >WHAT are the > > > > > > effects of karma attached? Riddle me that.<br/><br/><br/>Karma > > > > > > doesn't "exist" as a thing in the same way that gravity doesn't > > > > > > exist as an entity. It's the description of a Law (in this case, > > > > > > cause and effect). I have no idea about reincarnation/ rebirth. > > > > > > Cause and effect operates regardless of such beliefs. > > > > > > <br/><br/><br/>>One last thing...if you ever do want to have a > > > > > > discussion on just plain old cause-and-effect please >remember your > > > > > > inappropriate simili above of "like night follows day (and > > > > > > vice-versa)". In a >discussion on the human perception of > > > > > > cause-and-effect it will then indeed be very > > > > > > appropriate.<br/><br/>The fact that you responded to my post should > > > > > > be enough to end any questioning of cause and > > > > > > effect..<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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