JM, Sorry, haven't read it...
Edgar On Jun 5, 2013, at 12:28 PM, 覺妙精明 （JMJM） wrote: > Hi Edgar, What would you comment about books such as "Many masters, Many > lives"? Thanks, JM > > On 6/5/2013 6:00 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: >> >> Mike, >> >> >> Well if you want to get into energy all forms of energy (including mass) are >> just various forms of relative motion between forms when they are >> dimensionalized. >> >> And certainly the "sum total of energy in this universe can never be >> extinguished" is not strictly true. I presume what you meant to say is the >> total amount is conserved but that is not strictly true either. First energy >> is only conserved within an unchanging relativistic frame and second energy >> is lost from this VISIBLE universe over the event horizon and likely into >> black holes as well. >> >> I think it's more accurate to say that actions and thoughts are INFORMATION, >> as is the entirety of the world of forms, and information is not (usually) >> lost, just redistributed. But without any doubt individual human >> consciousnesses do not persist after death and they are not reborn into >> other bodies. >> >> Edgar >> >> >> On Jun 5, 2013, at 7:53 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> >>> Edgar, >>> >>> I wouldn't even go that far regarding reincarnation. Lets not forget that >>> rebirth was axiomatic in Buddha's time and wasn't even a belief. Buddha >>> just taught that a cause will always have an effect and this doesn't stop >>> at the death of the body - previous causes will eventually play out, but >>> not as 'you'. Personally, I neither know nor care - this life is all I can >>> experience. But it is interesting to note that actions and thoughts are >>> energy and the sum total of energy in this universe can never be >>> extinguished. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >>> To: <[email protected]>; >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the "S" word >>> Sent: Wed, Jun 5, 2013 11:31:05 AM >>> >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> >>> Karma and reincarnation are beliefs of the religious supernatural >>> peripheral manifestations of Buddhism. They are not core teachings... >>> >>> Buddha himself clearly stated that "all compound entities must cease" which >>> of course rules out reincarnation since humans are compound entities. >>> >>> The correct Buddhist view of karma is as I explained it below. It's only in >>> popular supernatural Buddhism that it's been distorted to become a comfort >>> sop for the weak and oppressed to make them believe that the meek will >>> someday inherit the earth crap.... >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 5, 2013, at 7:20 AM, Bill! wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Oh yeah, and I forgot - so is reincarnation...Bill! >>>> >>>> --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Edgar, et al... >>>> > >>>> > The only thing I'd agree with in Edgar's post below is that karma is >>>> > indeed a core Buddhist teaching. >>>> > >>>> > ...Bill! >>>> > >>>> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > Mike and Bill, >>>> > > >>>> > > Mike, Bill is totally hopeless here. He has somehow got into his head >>>> > > that there is no cause and effect and argues that on the basis of >>>> > > cause and effect while living his life, like everyone else does, on >>>> > > the basis of cause and effect. >>>> > > >>>> > > It would be a potentially dangerous delusion if he actually believed >>>> > > it which he really doesn't. He's just somehow got into his head that >>>> > > zen people are not supposed to believe in cause and >>>> > > effect even though EVERY Zen teacher >>>> > > from Buddha through Dogen onward has clearly affirmed that cause and >>>> > > effect rules the world of forms. >>>> > > >>>> > > I've tried to explain this self evident fact to Bill over and over >>>> > > with no success. >>>> > > >>>> > > That being said the simplistic view of Karma that good begets good and >>>> > > evil evil is clearly much too naive. And of course there is no >>>> > > reincarnation. >>>> > > >>>> > > However the quote you gave does not say that. What it says is that if >>>> > > you yourself have bad thoughts and incorrect thoughts you will suffer >>>> > > but if you have right thought you can avoid suffering to that extent. >>>> > > That is correct and a core Buddhist teaching - which of course >>>> > > incorporates cause and effect. >>>> > > >>>> > > It's really rather humorous and sad at the same time to see Bill >>>> > > obsessively trying to use tight logical cause and effect arguments to >>>> > > deny the existence of cause and effect, the world of forms, and the >>>> > > importance of reason.... >>>> > > >>>> > > Edgar >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On Jun 5, 2013, at 6:42 AM, Bill! wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > > Mike, >>>> > > > >>>> > > > You didn't 'catch me on a bad day' but you did read a little more >>>> > > > into my post than I actually wrote there. Edgar does this a lot. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > I agreed with your statement: "Karma isn't some cosmic law-giver >>>> > > > dispensing justice based on good or bad acts". That doesn't mean I >>>> > > > think 'karma' exists at all. It would be like saying 'I agree with >>>> > > > you when you say Santa Claus doesn't wear a plaid suit'. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > I do appreciate your distinction between 'bad' and 'unwholesome'. >>>> > > > 'Bad' is just a judgement. 'Unwholesome' carries with it a >>>> > > > connotation that the effect itself is part of the cause. Like >>>> > > > something that is 'unhealthy' will make you sick. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > My opinion is 'karma' is used in the Buddhist religion a carrot and >>>> > > > stick to persuade you to act 'good' and not 'bad'. It is described >>>> > > > as something 'automatic' so that if you do something 'bad' it will >>>> > > > result in 'bad' things happening to you. In that respect it is used >>>> > > > in much the same way as is 'heaven' and 'hell' in Christianity. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > In both cases if there does appear to be a strong correlation >>>> > > > between doing 'bad' things and having 'bad' things happen to you it >>>> > > > is not because of any 'cosmic law', but because you believe it. In >>>> > > > that respect it's kind of like another religion that has a lot of >>>> > > > cause-and-effect in it -voodoo. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > The 'night follows day' is a common phrase and I did misinterpret >>>> > > > the extent of your use of it here, but you did use it to mean that >>>> > > > there was an absolute inevitability with karma which I've said I >>>> > > > don't buy. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Anyway it was a nice discussion anyway. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > I say karma, sharma! >>>> > > > >>>> > > > ...Bill! >>>> > > > >>>> > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>Wow, catch you on a bad day or >>>> > > > > something??<br/><br/><br/>>First you say "Karma isn't some cosmic >>>> > > > > law-giver dispensing justice based on good or bad acts" >I >>>> > > > > wholeheartedly agree with that...<br/><br/>I'm still stunned (yet >>>> > > > > impressed) that you didn't just call it 'illusory'! <br/><br/>>BUT >>>> > > > > then you say "If you think and/or do unwholesome deeds, then >>>> > > > > suffering will follow you like >night follows day (and >>>> > > > > vice-versa)". So you first say karma has nothing to do with >>>> > > > > justice (fairness >in applying law) or good/bad acts and good/bad >>>> > > > > consequences, but then go onto say if you do >bad things you'll >>>> > > > > suffer. <br/><br/>Yes, and that's because it has nothing to do >>>> > > > > with justice and all to do with the more natural and consequential >>>> > > > > nature of such actions (You'll notice that you used the word "bad" >>>> > > > > where I used the more limited "unwholesome"). <br/><br/>>That's a >>>> > > > > non sequitur at best and just plain contradictory and inconsistent >>>> > > > > at worst. If you do good >>>> > > > > things you may suffer too. If you do bad things you may not. How >>>> > > > > does that fit into your 'logic'?<br/><br/>Your problem is that >>>> > > > > you're still focusing on external situations (they were robbed; >>>> > > > > insulted; a loved one leaves etc) that are acted on someone and >>>> > > > > not on how those situations are processed by the person affected. >>>> > > > > Wholesome thoughts lead to wholesome actions which in turn cause >>>> > > > > further wholesome thoughts, and so on, which extinguish (mental) >>>> > > > > suffering. Karma is not a magic talisman that stops "bad" things >>>> > > > > happening to you externally.<br/><br/>>You then go on to use an >>>> > > > > inappropriate simile saying these effects of karma is "like night >>>> > > > > follows >day (and vice-versa)". Night does not 'cause' day, and >>>> > > > > day does not 'cause' night. No one I know >of would seriously say >>>> > > > > that night and day have a cause-and-effect relationship. Night and >>>> > > > > day are >perceived as asynchronous, serial, and in this case >>>> > > > > cyclic events.<br/><br/>My use of 'Like night follows day' is >>>> > > > > just an everyday expression of the consequences of a >>>> > > > > thought/action and NOT an example of cause and effect! Have you >>>> > > > > ever heard of the Dharmapada? This is how the Buddha expressed >>>> > > > > it:<br/><br/>"What we are today comes from our thoughts of >>>> > > > > yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: >>>> > > > > our life is the creation of our mind.<br/>- If a man speaks or >>>> > > > > acts with an impure mind, suffering will follow him as the wheel >>>> > > > > of the cart follows the beast that draws the cart.<br/>- If a man >>>> > > > > speaks or acts with a pure mind, joy follows him as his own >>>> > > > > shadow." (deeshan.com)<br/><br/>That's the meaning I wanted to >>>> > > > > convey. Don't look at my use of 'night follows day' as being an >>>> > > > > example of cause and effect, but more along the lines of 'what >>>> > > > > will surely follow'.<br/><br/><br/>>Also, as I said in my previous >>>> > > > > post, if karma does exist, and a good/bad action (cause) results >>>> > > > > in a >corresponding good/bad effect (as you have said it doesn't >>>> > > > > but then said it >>>> > > > > does); and as all good >Buddhists believe karma can accumulate and >>>> > > > > even persist through rebirth/reincarnation, to >WHAT are the >>>> > > > > effects of karma attached? Riddle me that.<br/><br/><br/>Karma >>>> > > > > doesn't "exist" as a thing in the same way that gravity doesn't >>>> > > > > exist as an entity. It's the description of a Law (in this case, >>>> > > > > cause and effect). I have no idea about reincarnation/ rebirth. >>>> > > > > Cause and effect operates regardless of such beliefs. >>>> > > > > <br/><br/><br/>>One last thing...if you ever do want to have a >>>> > > > > discussion on just plain old cause-and-effect please >remember >>>> > > > > your inappropriate simili above of "like night follows day (and >>>> > > > > vice-versa)". In a >discussion on the human perception of >>>> > > > > cause-and-effect it will then indeed be very >>>> > > > > appropriate.<br/><br/>The fact that you responded to my post >>>> > > > > should be enough to end any questioning of cause and >>>> > > > > effect..<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> >>> >>> >> > > >
