Oh yeah, and I forgot - so is reincarnation...Bill!
--- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote:
>
> Edgar, et al...
>
> The only thing I'd agree with in Edgar's post below is that karma is indeed a
> core Buddhist teaching.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> >
> > Mike and Bill,
> >
> > Mike, Bill is totally hopeless here. He has somehow got into his head that
> > there is no cause and effect and argues that on the basis of cause and
> > effect while living his life, like everyone else does, on the basis of
> > cause and effect.
> >
> > It would be a potentially dangerous delusion if he actually believed it
> > which he really doesn't. He's just somehow got into his head that zen
> > people are not supposed to believe in cause and effect even though EVERY
> > Zen teacher from Buddha through Dogen onward has clearly affirmed that
> > cause and effect rules the world of forms.
> >
> > I've tried to explain this self evident fact to Bill over and over with no
> > success.
> >
> > That being said the simplistic view of Karma that good begets good and evil
> > evil is clearly much too naive. And of course there is no reincarnation.
> >
> > However the quote you gave does not say that. What it says is that if you
> > yourself have bad thoughts and incorrect thoughts you will suffer but if
> > you have right thought you can avoid suffering to that extent. That is
> > correct and a core Buddhist teaching - which of course incorporates cause
> > and effect.
> >
> > It's really rather humorous and sad at the same time to see Bill
> > obsessively trying to use tight logical cause and effect arguments to deny
> > the existence of cause and effect, the world of forms, and the importance
> > of reason....
> >
> > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 5, 2013, at 6:42 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > You didn't 'catch me on a bad day' but you did read a little more into my
> > > post than I actually wrote there. Edgar does this a lot.
> > >
> > > I agreed with your statement: "Karma isn't some cosmic law-giver
> > > dispensing justice based on good or bad acts". That doesn't mean I think
> > > 'karma' exists at all. It would be like saying 'I agree with you when you
> > > say Santa Claus doesn't wear a plaid suit'.
> > >
> > > I do appreciate your distinction between 'bad' and 'unwholesome'. 'Bad'
> > > is just a judgement. 'Unwholesome' carries with it a connotation that the
> > > effect itself is part of the cause. Like something that is 'unhealthy'
> > > will make you sick.
> > >
> > > My opinion is 'karma' is used in the Buddhist religion a carrot and stick
> > > to persuade you to act 'good' and not 'bad'. It is described as something
> > > 'automatic' so that if you do something 'bad' it will result in 'bad'
> > > things happening to you. In that respect it is used in much the same way
> > > as is 'heaven' and 'hell' in Christianity.
> > >
> > > In both cases if there does appear to be a strong correlation between
> > > doing 'bad' things and having 'bad' things happen to you it is not
> > > because of any 'cosmic law', but because you believe it. In that respect
> > > it's kind of like another religion that has a lot of cause-and-effect in
> > > it -voodoo.
> > >
> > > The 'night follows day' is a common phrase and I did misinterpret the
> > > extent of your use of it here, but you did use it to mean that there was
> > > an absolute inevitability with karma which I've said I don't buy.
> > >
> > > Anyway it was a nice discussion anyway.
> > >
> > > I say karma, sharma!
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>Wow, catch you on a bad day or
> > > > something??<br/><br/><br/>>First you say "Karma isn't some cosmic
> > > > law-giver dispensing justice based on good or bad acts" >I
> > > > wholeheartedly agree with that...<br/><br/>I'm still stunned (yet
> > > > impressed) that you didn't just call it 'illusory'! <br/><br/>>BUT then
> > > > you say "If you think and/or do unwholesome deeds, then suffering will
> > > > follow you like >night follows day (and vice-versa)". So you first say
> > > > karma has nothing to do with justice (fairness >in applying law) or
> > > > good/bad acts and good/bad consequences, but then go onto say if you do
> > > > >bad things you'll suffer. <br/><br/>Yes, and that's because it has
> > > > nothing to do with justice and all to do with the more natural and
> > > > consequential nature of such actions (You'll notice that you used the
> > > > word "bad" where I used the more limited "unwholesome").
> > > > <br/><br/>>That's a non sequitur at best and just plain contradictory
> > > > and inconsistent at worst. If you do good
> > > > things you may suffer too. If you do bad things you may not. How does
> > > > that fit into your 'logic'?<br/><br/>Your problem is that you're still
> > > > focusing on external situations (they were robbed; insulted; a loved
> > > > one leaves etc) that are acted on someone and not on how those
> > > > situations are processed by the person affected. Wholesome thoughts
> > > > lead to wholesome actions which in turn cause further wholesome
> > > > thoughts, and so on, which extinguish (mental) suffering. Karma is not
> > > > a magic talisman that stops "bad" things happening to you
> > > > externally.<br/><br/>>You then go on to use an inappropriate simile
> > > > saying these effects of karma is "like night follows >day (and
> > > > vice-versa)". Night does not 'cause' day, and day does not 'cause'
> > > > night. No one I know >of would seriously say that night and day have a
> > > > cause-and-effect relationship. Night and day are >perceived as
> > > > asynchronous, serial, and in this case cyclic events.<br/><br/>My use
> > > > of 'Like night follows day' is
> > > > just an everyday expression of the consequences of a thought/action and
> > > > NOT an example of cause and effect! Have you ever heard of the
> > > > Dharmapada? This is how the Buddha expressed it:<br/><br/>"What we are
> > > > today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts
> > > > build our life of tomorrow: our life is the creation of our mind.<br/>-
> > > > If a man speaks or acts with an impure mind, suffering will follow him
> > > > as the wheel of the cart follows the beast that draws the cart.<br/>-
> > > > If a man speaks or acts with a pure mind, joy follows him as his own
> > > > shadow." (deeshan.com)<br/><br/>That's the meaning I wanted to convey.
> > > > Don't look at my use of 'night follows day' as being an example of
> > > > cause and effect, but more along the lines of 'what will surely
> > > > follow'.<br/><br/><br/>>Also, as I said in my previous post, if karma
> > > > does exist, and a good/bad action (cause) results in a >corresponding
> > > > good/bad effect (as you have said it doesn't but then said it
> > > > does); and as all good >Buddhists believe karma can accumulate and even
> > > > persist through rebirth/reincarnation, to >WHAT are the effects of
> > > > karma attached? Riddle me that.<br/><br/><br/>Karma doesn't "exist" as
> > > > a thing in the same way that gravity doesn't exist as an entity. It's
> > > > the description of a Law (in this case, cause and effect). I have no
> > > > idea about reincarnation/ rebirth. Cause and effect operates regardless
> > > > of such beliefs. <br/><br/><br/>>One last thing...if you ever do want
> > > > to have a discussion on just plain old cause-and-effect please
> > > > >remember your inappropriate simili above of "like night follows day
> > > > (and vice-versa)". In a >discussion on the human perception of
> > > > cause-and-effect it will then indeed be very appropriate.<br/><br/>The
> > > > fact that you responded to my post should be enough to end any
> > > > questioning of cause and effect..<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/>Sent from
> > > > Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
