Dear Vivek,
I am also sorry for over-reacting but your mail was not exactly encouraging. I did find the last part useful...but like I said, an example would be more helpful. It is very difficult to understand theory without proper illustrations.
Farah.
Vivek Narayanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Farah,
I certainly did not intend a malicious attack. I am very sorry that you
did not find the mail useful, and I'm also sorry that I spent so much
time composing it.
V.
Farah wrote:
> Hi Vivek,
>
> /
>
> I wonder about the wisdom of posting unfinished work to the list-- but
> I guess that might be a matter of taste. I also don't intend to be
> insensitive, but let me speak my mind clearly: these seem like notes
> for a poem much more than a poem itself: the energy flags and picks
> up, then flags again, in a manner which suggests that the writer is
> not necessarily paying attention to where it works and where it doesn't.
>
> /
>
> Yes it is a matter of taste so you don't need to wonder about the
> wisdom of posting unfinished work...besides I did not find it written
> anywhere in the group policy that it is forbidden to post "unfinished
> work".
>
> Glad to know that you did not intend to be "insensitive", for that is
> exactly what you are being...sorry for speaking my mind so clearly in
> turn.
>
> These may be notes and these might not be...maybe after a month's
> revision they would become more of a poem to your taste; but I am not
> posting for your pleasure only. Yes indeed I did not pay attention to
> how energy flags, but if you had paid attention in turn, you could
> have seen that I said it is "barely poetic". Where is it written that
> a poem in free verse should follow archaic conventions? I wrote this
> poem or piece because I felt the need to do so. And I sincerely
> believe that it conveys the pain I felt...if you are blind to it then
> I regret that.
>
> /
>
> There is a crisis of subject in this poem-- what is it about? The
> heart of the poem-- ie. to me the most interesting and meaningful
> thing about it-- is the lost baby brother, but this is also what the
> writer seems most afraid of engaging with. To say that "imagination
> pulls a break" ["imagination makes a break"?] seems like a copout; the
> poet's duty is not to admit defeat but press the imagination for answers.
>
> /
>
> You say there is crises of subject in this poem you amaze me it is
> about death and suffering and if you fail to see that then I cannot
> give you more obvious explanations.
>
> The heart of the poem is not my lost baby brother . You are hopelessly
> wrong sir. He died 21 years ago. I mentioned him because his death is
> the closest example I have of losing someone I loved. When I was
> writing this piece, I was trying to imagine how it must feel to loose
> a loved one. To me his memory at times can be distressing even now,
> then what must be the feelings of those parents who have lost their
> children just a few days ago?
>
> You say you are not single in your bio do you have kids? Try and
> imagine their death, let's say in a similar way as the earthquake
> victims. You know squashed like some bug, bleeding and broken, barely
> recognizable. If your imagination can work that far, then I must say I
> am impressed by your courage. For I lack such courage. I cannot think
> beyond a certain limit of gore. My imagination indeed "pulls a break".
>
> /I guess I personally would extract the baby brother part, then try to
> build a *tight* poem around it, making use of some of the other stuff
> in the poem, such as going to school etc only if one can has space for
> it in the new structure/.
>
> You may do personally whatever you like and believe me I would not
> pounce on you the way you did on me. And the school going kids is a
> major issue with me I would never make them a side issue as you intend
> to do. I am not writing about my brother, as you clearly fail to see,
> but about the earth quake victims, so they come first.
>
> /
>
> I as a reader would want the revision to be deep revision, and not
> superficial.
>
> /
>
> Instead of putting up a blunt demand, why don't you illustrate your
> point with an example, like Mani does.
>
> /That would mean taking things like word-choice very seriously/. /But
> I have another question for you, on all your work, and I honestly mean
> it as a question because you do seem to be someone who has read the
> best of modern poetry in English: what do you see as the status of
> cliche in your work? My sense is that "cliche" works much better, say,
> in the South Asian languages, where it is not so much a cliche as a
> convention, played in tandem with received forms such as the ghazal,
> where it signals and stays in dialogue with the history of those
> conventions and forms. Even then, the most major modern poets in the
> South Asian languages such as Faiz do seem to be able to take
> conventions such as the "beloved" and recast them with radically new
> meanings and gestures. In English however, the convention always seems
> rapidly on the verge of degenerating into cliche, and has become very
> hard to handle. Someone like Agha Shahid Ali worked with conventions
> but had to really overhaul their music before they started to work for
> him. In the work of Plath and Heaney, which you have cited, the main
> energy comes from a complete avoidance of cliche and predictability
> [in different waysPlath raises the volume to heavy metal levels while
> Heaney lowers it to ambient music] and a restless dedication [both of
> them were/are hardcore revisers, and you can see traces of that
> immense blood and sweat effort in their work] to keeping the language
> fresh. /
>
> To the above barely understandable tirade I have this to say. First of
> all, I do not presume to have read all of "the best of modern poetry
> in English". My knowledge is limited and I am still in stages of
> infancy as far as writing is concerned. Your "sense" would make more
> sense if you would care to illustrate your point with constructive
> criticism instead of a blunt attack. I site the work of Plath and
> Heaney because I have read them it does not necessarily follow that I
> should copy them.
>
> /
>
> I guess I'm saying that I don't see that in your work, and what it
> sounds to me often is cliched, both in terms of word-choice and in
> terms of sense perception/ideas.
>
> /
>
> Now I am very sorry if my work fails to impress you, but like I said
> before, I am not posting for your pleasure. If you like it, well and
> good. If you don't then I am sorry. For you see, I am a beginner, just
> a novice. I don't even pretend to be a poet, let alone impress
> someone. But you clearly see yourself as an expert and a professional.
> There is a difference of ten years between us. Now if you wish to
> teach, why don't you preach less and be more generous with helpful
> advice. What you have written in your mail is just a malicious attack,
> nothing else. Believe me I will try to learn if you are willing to do
> it sincerely.
>
> /
>
> A second point: perhaps you might experiment with your line breaks a
> little more, try breaking them in different places? As in the poem
> below, you almost always break your lines at the end of a clause
> (where there would be a natural pause anyway) and where the rhyme
> falls. Letting an end-rhyme chime away, remember, does not absolve you
> from attention to the integrity and "alive-ness" of the line.
>
> /
>
> This is the only part of the whole mail that has seemed constructive
> to me I have tried to understand your point and some of it did make
> sense. Why don't you, again I repeat, illustrate your point with an
> example. I would be very grateful to you.
>
> Regards,
>
> Farah.
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Vivek Narayanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
> >
> > Hi Farah,
> >
> > I wonder about the wisdom of posting unfinished work to the list--
> but I
> > guess that might be a matter of taste. I also don't intend to be
> > insensitive, but let me speak my mind clearly: these seem like notes
> for
> > a poem much more than a poem itself: the energy flags and picks up,
> then
> > flags again, in a manner which suggests that the writer is not
> > necessarily paying attention to where it works and where it doesn't.
> The
> > reader's (at least this reader's) eye tends to wander around the poem
> > rather than getting pulled into it. There is a crisis of subject in
> this
> > poem-- what is it about? The heart of the poem-- ie. to me the most
> > interesting and meaningful thing about it-- is the lost baby brother,
> > but this is also what the writer seems most afraid of engaging with. To
> > say that "imagination pulls a break" ["imagination makes a break"?]
> > seems like a copout; the poet's duty is not to admit defeat but press
> > the imagination for answers. I guess I personally would extract the
> baby
> > brother part, then try to build a *tight* poem around it, making use of
> > some of the other stuff in the poem, such as going to school etc
> only if
> > one can has space for it in the new structure. Of course, there
> could be
> > many other options for revision, too, but any way you go, I as a reader
> > would want the revision to be deep revision, and not superficial.
> >
> > That would mean taking things like word-choice very seriously. But I
> > have another question for you, on all your work, and I honestly mean it
> > as a question because you do seem to be someone who has read the
> best of
> > modern poetry in English: what do you see as the status of cliche in
> > your work? My sense is that "cliche" works much better, say, in the
> > South Asian languages, where it is not so much a cliche as a
> convention,
> > played in tandem with received forms such as the ghazal, where it
> > signals and stays in dialogue with the history of those conventions and
> > forms. Even then, the most major modern poets in the South Asian
> > languages such as Faiz do seem to be able to take conventions such as
> > the "beloved" and recast them with radically new meanings and gestures.
> >
> > In English however, the convention always seems rapidly on the verge of
> > degenerating into cliche, and has become very hard to handle. Someone
> > like Agha Shahid Ali worked with conventions but had to really overhaul
> > their music before they started to work for him. In the work of Plath
> > and Heaney, which you have cited, the main energy comes from a complete
> > avoidance of cliche and predictability [in different ways-- Plath
> raises
> > the volume to heavy metal levels while Heaney lowers it to ambient
> > music] and a restless dedication [both of them were/are hardcore
> > revisers, and you can see traces of that immense blood and sweat effort
> > in their work] to keeping the language fresh. I guess I'm saying that I
> > don't see that in your work, and what it sounds to me often is cliched,
> > both in terms of word-choice and in terms of sense perception/ideas.
> >
> > A second point: perhaps you might experiment with your line breaks a
> > little more, try breaking them in different places? As in the poem
> > below, you almost always break your lines at the end of a clause (where
> > there would be a natural pause anyway) and where the rhyme falls.
> > Letting an end-rhyme chime away, remember, does not absolve you from
> > attention to the integrity and "alive-ness" of the line.
> >
>
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