On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:00:35 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, Gilberto, Mark: However, I have often found that what strikes me as plausible is greeted with astonishment by many others. To me, Thelema (Crowley) is plausible. Gilberto: I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Even with the few thelemites I've communicated with, I wasn't sure if they were "realists" when it came to their own beliefs. Are you saying it is plausible that Crowley really did have some kind of spiritual experience with an entity which led him to write down his various "scriptures" and told him about the beginning of the Age of Horus and led him to get into all this sex magick? I mean, have you heard the anatomical interpretations of the mouth of Isis and the eye of Horus are? And in the Gnostic Mass (at least in some of the groups who look to Crowley) do you know what some of the ingredients are in the "body and blood" are? Ick! Maybe I'm being a bit too subjective and unfair. I mean, I think I have a certain respect for something like Santeria especially as a form of resistance so the idea of dancing around with chicken blood on you being mounted by an orisha seems messy, but it doesn't offend me. But I have this visceral reaction to the Crowley stuff as just being wrong. If you want to say you like Nietzsche or Hermeticism or secret societies affiliated with Fremasonry that's one thing. But when I get to reading about what seems like shameless hedonism with nasty rituals involving bodily fluids I have a hard time accepting that it is a valid way to the divine. I guess you can connect it back to the trust issue. Is it really a sincere spiritual path or is it just an excuse to play dress up and have orgies? Mark: > On the other hand, religious movements which argue, in one way or another, > for the termination of prophetic revelation at some time in the past (such as > most of the traditional branches of the Judaisms, Christianities, and Islams) > strike me as highly implausible. Obviously, you would disagree with me. Gilberto: I think the picture gets more complex than that. I think in Judaism there actually may be a date where they say the canon is closed and no more prophets are coming. In Christian circles there is a charismatic movement which is even getting into the Catholic Church. And the Catholic Church certainly has approved of many saints and visionaries who are associeted with miracles and personal revelation. (The messages from Fatima would be a good example). And similarly in Islam, although the Wahabis might try to paint a different picture, it seems to me that orthodox traditional "mainstream" Islam also has a concept of awliya who also can experience kashf and ilham and play a charismatic role in the world. (Does the Bahai faith have charismatic figures like that?) It seems to me that both the Bahai faith and Islam and Christianity are saying that God is still active in the world providing guidance to individuals in various ways. Islam is only saying that a very particular way of doing that has ended. > "The differences among the religions of the world are due to the varying > types of minds. So long as the powers of the mind are various, it is certain > that men's judgements and opinions will differ one from another. If, > however, one single, universal perceptive power be introduced - a power > encompassing all the rest - those differing opinions will merge, and a > spiritual harmony and oneness will become apparent," > -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p.63 But then is the Bahai faith one more religion next to the rest which appeals to a certain kind of mind? Or are you that Bahais necessarily have that universal perceptive power? Gilberto: > >>Yeah, I actually find groups like that pretty interesting. There are > >>several interesting variations too..the Ethiopian Orthodox Chuch (I gather) > >>has more of a "Jewish" emphasis than some other groups.<< Mark: > The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is probably the most tolerant of the > Monophysites and has tended to de-emphasize missionary activity. I didn't realize that any of them were big on missionary activity. I'm not saying you are wrong but the little I've read suggested the opposite. I think they were expanding efforts in Jamaica to try to properly teach the Rastafarians. What I'd read struck me as really smooth. So instead of saying that Halie Selassie was God they were trying to suggest that the was a living icon which seems like a cool idea. Gilberto: > >>So do the Hebrew Israelites and Rastafarians. Then at the another end you > >>have Anglo-Israelite groups too which can get kind of scary.<< Mark: > Some of the Hebrew Israelites groups, such as the Nubian Islamic Hebrews, > have a habit of frequently changing their names. I have had long > conversations with some of them in New York's Penn Station. Gilberto: I'm not sure I would have included them in the Hebrew Israelites. I think the Nubian Islamic Hebrews used to be the Ansars. So they were led by Dr. York and believed in the lastest Mahdi in the Sudan. I've read a bunch about them and have talked to some in Detroit the past year. They seemed really loose and syncretic in some ways. Accepting the Quran but also the deity of Christ. Mixing stuff about UFOs and things. The latest I've heard about them they have a compound somewhere in the South and are building pyramids. When I think of Hebrew Israelites they generally are less syncretic. They follow the Tanakh in some way and I think many recognize Jesus as the Messiah. I think there are different groups but the most famous one was from the southside of Chicago and moved to Demona Israel many years ago to set up a community there. Mark: > Probably the least frightening of the Anglo Israelites are the churches which > have split off from the late Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. Gilberto: Yeah, they used to have a show on tv I would watch when I was younger. (And there was also the Plain Truth magazine) In some ways, they nudged me to think about the Bible differently. Just in terms of giving more value and attention to the "Jewish" parts of the Bible. And it's weird when I think about it... it wasn't until relatively recently that it clicked for me that they were making these odd racial claims in terms of world history. I think they probably downplayed it some on their tv show (or I was just too young to pick up on it totally) Mark: However, I had an extended conversation with two members of a Christian Identity church two days ago on PalTalk, and I did find their views disturbing. Gilberto: Yup. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
