I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This would not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the vote 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using STevE during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely be divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with the most polarized opinions. Julian On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility! > > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41 > To: Apache Community Dev <dev@community.apache.org> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a > good idea. > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <a...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > Copying them now. > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > > > > > @Andrew, > > > > > > How do we engage the board? > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini > > > m...@emangini.com > > > > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <a...@apache.org> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28 > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Andrew, > > > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing (and > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a dipstick > > > effort > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics. Polling > > > is > > > > more about discovery. > > > > > > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll. > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against). > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be > useful there needs to be some substance. > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you looking at > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting urgency > > > on > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?) > > > > > > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that covers > > > almost > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be smart > > > for > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad hoc > > > outreach. > > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off? > > > > > > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on this, > > > no. > > > > > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and > > > > outreach? > > > > > > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer. > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members > watch this list. > > - Sam Ruby > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <a...@apache.org> > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05 > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all school > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for this: > > > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in an > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic sympathy > > > > to > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations. > > > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can > > > open > > > > a > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official > > > > experience of the ASF branding is? > > > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation. > > > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is viewed as > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with feasibility > > > and > > > > community values. > > > > > > > > Best > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <m...@emangini.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > @Christian > > > > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way of > > > > defining > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid confirmation bias, > > > > but I > > > > > think it’s definitely possible. > > > > > > > > > > @Matt > > > > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would require > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail pretty > > > > quickly. > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the Washington > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to 5. This > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial questions. > > > > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a name > > > change > > > > as > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles). Large > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often rebrand > > > > the > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their business/tech > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials) are > > > > retrofit > > > > > at a slower burn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy to > > > pair/mob > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any particular > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?) > > > > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can put > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07 > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example, the > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of unchangeable > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released artifact, > > > the > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people outside of > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email addresses, > > > signing > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents, trademarks, > > > and > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting. > > > > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where it's easy > > > to > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons of key > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may not adopt > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns I've had > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with another OSS > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier > > > > > <grobme...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote: > > > > > > > Christian, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a > > > > spectacular > > > > > idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@, since > > > (I > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off? > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and proposing > > > > it > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the content we > > > > could > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@ > > > > > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling, > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :) > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Christian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini > > > > > > > m...@emangini.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <grobme...@apache.org> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04 > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Hello, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote: > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo > > > > Walter’s > > > > > > >> > passion and statements. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> +1 > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to > > > > > accomplish. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> +1 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these questions in > > > > > concert: > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming? > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization willing > > > to > > > > > participate? > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point of no > > > > > return. If > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand, it’s > > > going > > > > > to > > > > > > >> > chum the waters. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the community > > > > first- > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community (non-binding) > > > vote > > > > is > > > > > - just checking sentiments. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based on the > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue or > > > > actually > > > > > solve the issue. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are interested > > > in > > > > > helping. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Cheers, > > > > > > >> Christian > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <walter.li...@waltercameron.com> > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03 > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <dev@community.apache.org> > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby < > > > ru...@intertwingly.net> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? > > > > What > > > > > is > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to > > > > this > > > > > issue and > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it but I > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d speak > > > up, > > > > > people > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work to > > > undo > > > > the > > > > > harm > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that might > > > > spur > > > > > effort > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you want me > > > to > > > > do > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar with the > > > > details > > > > > of the > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its Directors, > > > so > > > > in > > > > > a lot > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what needs to be > > > > > done, but > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my rudimentary > > > > technical > > > > > and > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put together a > > > new > > > > > logo or > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I haven’t > > > > > designed a > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a try. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid staff > > > and > > > > > goals to > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and continue > > > > receiving > > > > > corporate > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction outweigh > > > > the > > > > > costs of > > > > > > >> > action here. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Walter > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
